MAX Episode #8 - Frank Wu, Head of Design: Jidu Auto (Part 1 of 2)

In this latest MAX episode, Tu & Lei welcome Frank Wu, Head of Design at JIDU. Frank leads the award winning JIDU Design team who recently won two Red Dot awards for their concept - the ROBO-01 concept vehicle & ROBO-01 charger. 

Part 1: Frank opens up about his personal journey, what's influenced his career decisions and compares and contrasts the design processes between the different companies he’s worked for including how he was recruited and why he ultimately decided to take on the Head of Design role at JIDU.

Frank was VERY open and conversational so we've split our conversation with him into two parts. Part II will drop within the next 48 hours.

**We apologize for some of the audio issues with portions of this recording.**

 

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Transcript

MAX Episode #8 - Frank Wu, Head of Design, JIDU
Recorded June 27, 2022

Part I

Frank Wu:
So that's the moment I knew I was going to join the company, because I and then that time, first few months, to be honest, the first few months I didn't even have any salary. But why did I do it? It was because it was a startup. I felt like this, if we put in the effort, we put in the hard work and we put in the grind. And then if the direction is correct, and if we hire the right people for the team to be able to all work together and deliver this amazing product, the hard work will pay off, but obviously hard work you got to have the right direction. If the direction is wrong, then you're just going to go to the wrong direction from the very beginning, right?

 Tu Le:
Hi everyone, Tu Le here, one-half of the China EVs & More duo. Lei and I are always thinking about different ways to bring you, our audience, relevant and compelling content about the China EV, AV and mobility sectors. Especially now that several companies that we’ve tracked over the last 70 or so episodes have become global phenomenon. 

 China EVs & More MAX is where we bring you that special content, in the form of conversations we have with special guests from those sectors. 

 In this episode, Lei and I speak with Frank Wu, Head of Design at JIDU, the joint venture smart EV startup formed by Baidu and Geely in March 2021. JIDU recently unveiled the ROBO-01 concept production robocar, which previews the upcoming production model that will be unveiled in the fall and start deliveries in the first half of 2023.

 I had the privilege of being one of the few non-employees to have a sneak peek at the ROBO-01 when I visited Baidu headquarters recently, and I was quite impressed with the concept vehicle. The design was clean, mature and the lines flowed well. JIDU likely has a hit on its hands in 2023, if the software/hardware integration and the manufacturing team can execute on the concept’s promise. 

 Frank shares his life journey from a six-year-old kid having arrived in the U.S. from China all the way to joining JIDU last year as head of design based in Shanghai, where he was originally born. He also talks about work culture at JIDU, his experience working at BAIC in Beijing, Cadillac in the U.S., stints with Ford, Honda and Mazda, and how his artist dad influenced his decision to study transportation & industrial design, which ultimately led him to attend College for Creative Studies (CCS) in Detroit, and that kicked off his automotive design career. This is the first time Frank has shared these intimate details of his life journey as an automotive designer. 

Tu Le:
Hi, Frank, thanks for joining us. I know you're busy, so Lei and I appreciate you carving out this time to chat so we can learn more about you and what you've been up to. And the recent big announcement from your company. I feel like we're brothers since you went to school and worked in metro Detroit, my hometown, right? I haven't lived in Michigan for over 20 years, but I’ve visited every year until COVID. So I still feel that's my home, my family is there. We can talk about some fun stuff towards the end. But please tell us about yourself, Frank, your career arc, I’m particularly interested how you ended up in Detroit going to CCS and spending the first part of your career with Cadillac.

Frank Wu:
First of all, thanks for having me guys. It's really a pleasure. I think it's going to be a fun podcast. So to quickly introduce myself, so I was actually originally born in Shanghai. So now that is kind of ironic. So I was originally born in Shanghai and then eventually I moved to the States when I was six years old. So I guess one of the regrets that I have as an adult is I never really had the chance to learn Chinese in turn the reading and writing. A lot of times while living here and then, man I'll tell you during the lockdown time, that was not easy. They were sending notices and all that so and I cannot read it. I was locked in myself so it was not easy, but with that said, I pretty much started studying in first grade in the States and then all the way until the end of my college years, right? 

So with the CCS question, to quickly answer it. So my father is an artist. So he's somebody that I really look up to really as a not only a father figure, but a role model. And I’m sure there are some of us that look up to our parents that way. The reason why is because he raised me pretty much my entire life, all the way when I finished high school and left off to college. It wasn't easy because back then he was as a single father and from California, we moved on in different counties because he is a freelance artist. So I remember back in the days he used to attend these county fairs. Then he'll do sculptures, what we call instant sculptures of people's sort of portrait/face sculpture. And he does it like absolutely phenomenal. He can literally like create a very identical and capture sort of the soul of the customer within like 20 minutes. And that's something that I can never do, not in my lifetime. So, he would often, we would move around. 

First we moved to California within LA, I remember Glendale, and then Monterey Park, Alhambra areas. And then later on, I moved to Las Vegas actually. That was right when I finished my elementary school, I was like from first grade to like 5th grade. So the first 5 years I was in California, and then my middle school years I was in Las Vegas. And that was between 6th grade, 7th grade, and I think 8th grade, right? And then after Vegas, we actually briefly moved back to LA I remember I think it was like over the course of the summer period like it was summertime. And then my dad he was working in Santa Monica Pier. So, yeah, so when I go there, even I mean even today, I have sort of the déjà vu of my childhood when I used to walk by the main street and listen to live jazz and watch performance art, and street artists perform, it's just very, very beautiful memory. 

And then I remember very clearly that time my dad he was working on the sculpture for a client, for one of the customers, and then that customer happened to be the same customer that visited him 10 years ago. So he saw him at the exact same location, which was the Santa Monica Pier. And he came to look for him. And the reason why which we were completely shocked was that he wanted to hire my father to work for him. And what happened was, the first portrait sculpture my dad did of him, he brought home, and then he showed it to his family, his wife and his friends. Everybody was like this guy is incredible like he can do it in 20 minutes. So essentially, so what happened is he actually owns a robotic wax company. So they make, they call it animatronics, right? So they take these robots that are lifelike robots. And so essentially, he came and offered my dad a job, and then that was sort of the, I think one of the big transitions where we moved from the West Coast to the East Coast. Yeah, so that was like the real transition. And then that was exactly when I finished my middle school. And then we went to the East Coast. I remember we were in Bowling Green because the company was in Bowling Green. 

Tu Le:
It’s a lot different than California.

Frank Wu:
Yeah, let's put it that way. I was like, where's this place? I was like, are we there yet? And essentially this is the place. But no, I love Bowling Green because I went to Bowling Green not too long ago. I think it was like 6 years ago, right before I left and moved to China, I went to Bowling Green to attend Gene, his retirement party. But we kept in contact throughout all these years, it's a very beautiful memory. Anyway, so we were there. And then it was a very beautiful city, super friendly, very very small town. And so what happened was, but we ended up living there for not too long, I think it was just like a few months, actually. The reason why was because my dad, he had a few friends that lived in New York City and then they called him up and say, hey, listen like, why don't we come to New York? And like it's a big city and also there's a lot of business here with the street artists and then that's when we moved to New York and then that's where I pretty much started my high school years.

And then next thing you know, 9th grade, 10th grade, 11, 12, and done with high school. Then I pretty much started university. But I remember first I visited Art Center before CCS actually. And the reason why is because we used to live in California, right? And I remember very, very clearly, there's this childhood story where I was actually in elementary school in California, but that was when I was a child, and we were, my dad and I were at a park and we're playing basketball, just him and I. And that day what happened was we were in one of those big parks where there's like a lake in the park, right? And the lake was right next to the basketball court. And I shot the ball and I missed the rim, and then it literally just rolled off the sort of the grass and it went into the lake. And then we waited for like an hour because the ball was like floating all over the place, right? So I still remember till today that very clearly, my dad was like, what do you want to do with your life when you grow up? And at that time I honestly didn't know. I was like, I don't know. And I said maybe something has to do with art or something has to do with, like what you do dad. He was like, there's a very good design school here in California. Like Asian parents he's like kind of bragging about his friend's kids. He's like I got a friend, their son goes to UCLA, his son, his daughter goes to UC Berkeley and then, anyways, he mentioned about Art Center.

Tu Le:
The Asian guilt, that's the Asian guilt.

Frank Wu:
Yeah and he mentioned about Art Center. He's like Art Center, he's like because we lived in California. So we didn't really know about other schools around the East Coast or the Midwest and he said, I know a friend, his son went to Art Center. He studied this thing called transportation industrial design. Now he graduated and then he's in China now and he's doing really, really good. And he's like there's something that you should consider. That was a long time ago and then so that memory always kind of forecasting in my head. So then that's why I went to visit Art Center, and when I arrived, it was a very, very sort of ironic moment because they happened to have the Art Center Summer Show, I think it was a summer show or it was the graduation show. Then I remember I was walking through the school campus and then was checking out the students putting up their graduation work. There's the fine art, there's sculpture, advertisement and photography and entertainment art. And I was like mind blown away and I was like this is really cool. But the moment I got into the basement, and they opened the door into the transportation design studio, that was like the holy grail moment. Seriously, like even till today, I can still remember so vividly because I was like holy crap, I was like, I have so many questions. I was young and I was like, did they draw this, did they make this model? And we had the admissions officer obviously was giving us support. And then I think there was some like graduating seniors, they were like introducing their work. And I was like, this is exactly what I want to do with my life, you know? And that was it.

Tu Le:
Very cool man, very cool.

Frank Wu:
So what happened was, this story I’ve actually never told anybody, actually, so you guys are probably the exclusive guys to hear it. How did I end up going to CCS so that's the story. What happened was at the same time, that time there was a gentleman from AAU, his name is called Tom Matano.

Tu Le:
Frank, let me interrupt you one second for our audience. CCS is the College for Creative Studies. It's an art school based in Detroit proper, and it's where a lot of automotive designers go to school and end up at a Ford, or a Stellantis, or a GM, so.

Frank Wu:
Correct. So Tom Matano, he called me up. And then AAU is a great school in San Francisco. And then he said, Frank, he's like, I think right here, we will love to have you here. And then unfortunately, I didn't go to San Francisco to check out the school until after I even graduated and started working as a professional. But then I checked out the tuition. That was the part that kind of hurt it. So the moment like everybody greeted you with a very happy mile, I was like hi how are you, they are like oh my god we would love to have you here. And I was like I would love to be here. And then the moment they handed me the handbook. And then the tuition page I was like my smile just kind of disappeared. The reason why was because my parents, they didn't have the, unfortunately didn't have the financial ability to be able to pay for my college. Actually, I paid through my college by myself throughout. How did I do it? A combination of a little bit of everything. There's obviously the big part is the student loan. I got a huge grant and scholarship from CCS later. And then a part time job. At the same time back when I was in college, I played a little bit of poker throughout the weekends and...

Tu Le:
Rounders, rounders.

Frank Wu:
It was actually, it was fun.

Tu Le:
Probably a little dangerous too, because it's Detroit.

Frank Wu:
No we didn't play. We actually played in Canada. It was like 30 minutes. So that was kind of like, I guess that's the answer, right? So that was kind of like what happened with Art Center was the tuition was really high. And that time, I think compared to CCS at that time it was like almost twice. And the cost of living in Pasadena was like not cheap at all. And then I remember there's a bleak store back then before it got purchased, it used to be called the Art Store. And then it literally right in downtown the heart of downtown Pasadena and then my dad used to go there to  buy clay when we were living in California, when he used to work in Santa Monica Pier. Anyway, due to that, so I started looking around other places and then found obviously there's Pratt Institute, and then there's RISD, the Rhode Island School of Design, And then obviously there's the CIA, Cleveland Institute of Art, and then University of Cincinnati and all that. But pretty much cut to the chase, so I found out about CCS and then back then, I think you guys probably heard of the website called cardesignnews.com.
 
So cardesignnews.com at that time, like during my time, it was very different. It was very different than today. That time I don't remember, there was like, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don't remember there was subscription at that time. I think it was like open source to everybody. And I remember one of the hottest area in the website was actually the forum. And it was almost like Reddit, right? This is like people talk, and they post stuff and then there's a huge discussion thread. That time it was actually quite cool because there's some hot shots like very good friends of mine in the car design industry. Back then we were all in high school or we were like looking for school. And we were all in that group and we're talking and then. We're talking about, hey, who's going to do a hot BMW sketch, who's going to do a hot Mercedes or Mazda sketch, right? Then we will actually do it at home and post it on cardesignnews chat group. And people would like review and comment and, it was super nice because back then, I remember people were giving very, very constructive and positive comments on how to help these young kids grow as a car design student. I’m not sure because I haven't really gone on this site too much recently, but I hope it's still there, because it was one of the, for me, originality sort of feature of the cardesignnews site, because it's cardesignnews, but then it was really attracting a lot of young designers that want to be car designers. 

So anyways long story short, later on, that's how I ended up at CCS. I went to Detroit. Tu I got to tell you, and I got to be honest with you. I flew from New York to Detroit, I bought a one way ticket, and I remember very clearly I had two luggage bags, a backpack, and a display, I think it was like a 20-inch display for my tablet. And when I arrived to the airport I literally thought I was like, I’m going to finish school and I’m going to be out. I was like I’m going to finish school and I’m going to be out. I was like I miss New York, I miss LA, I want to be in LA, because I never lived in Detroit, I never even visited Detroit except for once, which was when I went to CCS through I think it was like this virtual tour thing. And then the photos and the school the facilities bare beautiful, very beautiful facility. And downtown today, Detroit downtown is absolutely amazing. But when I was there, it wasn't as glamourous as today.

Tu Le:
Yeah when you were there, Detroit was still a pretty dangerous place.

Frank Wu:
It was down in Eight Mile, those areas. It wasn't really the first choice to go, right? The first place to go for people unless you want to get yourself in trouble. But so anyways, so that's how I pretty much started the next chapter of my life in Detroit. Like I said, when I arrived, I was like, I’m going to finish my four years and I’m out of here. But then the moment I started to live there, and the moment I started to actually learn and embrace the city, seen the positive, the beautiful side but at the same time the negative side of the city, and be able to be part of the community. That's when I really became, like I changed my entire perspective. And then like we would go downtown and check out the Tigers game. We would check out, I’ve been to the Lions game once at a very late stage before I was about to move out of Detroit, but go to downtown, hang out with friends. And then I remember there was this billiard club called the Magic Stick, right? That place was the hangout spot for us. It was fun. I got to tell you. I would love to have a Magic Stick in Shanghai like, I would go there, like, it was fun!

Tu Le:
Magic Stick is not fancy enough for Shanghai.

Frank Wu:
It brings back so much beautiful memories. I remember. Yeah, so anyways, Magic Stick there was a lot of fun memories that happened at Magic Stick and then here was, I think the restaurant or bar across the street called the Union, right? And then I think these were the only two areas in like the downtown Woodward area that actually had people? And the other areas, I think it wasn't as busy. So and then that time we had around, I think it was like a few thousand applicants that applied for the industrial design program, there was 120 students. I remember I counted very, very clearly 120 students. And end of the first year everybody wanted to try to get into the auto program, right? So we had a obviously a review or was it like auto design review by the program chairman? And then by the full-time faculties, and then that time I was like, I got to get into auto, because I was paying tuition out of pocket and with a student loan. Don't forget, that time, the student loan interest rate was 7.75%. I got to tell you, one thing is, I still think that's absolutely ridiculous. Even today, I paid off my student loan, like twice as fast as my original retention plan, the repayment  plan, the term for the before it was like 20-year payment and I paid it back, I think was like 10 years. But I seriously feel like that's a very big problem, because students, the people that really try hard to go to school, try to make a difference for themselves, and then take out student loans out of pocket by themselves, end up getting sort of dashed by the interest rate. And people that are buying a freaking brand new car that is not necessarily a necessity. When you can buy a used car, you can buy a pre-owned car, you can buy a good car, ok car, a crappy car, whatever it is. When you buy a brand new car, you get like an interest rate of only 2%, right? A house, for instance, I have a house in Michigan still. When I bought my house, my interest rate was only 4%. So this logic, I literally still don't understand. So I was very, very frustrated with that to be honest.

And that's when I was telling myself I was like, I got to get into the auto program. If I don't, then like I got to find a plan B, then I'm going to probably go to Art Center. I'm going to do something. I got into the auto program in the second year and the second year, by the end of the second year, there's another cut. So there's another review. By the second cut, then if you get into the junior year auto program, then you're pretty much in. And you graduate as a car design major, then the end of the second year we did it again. And then I was really grinding and working my butt off. I'm sure a lot of my fellow classmates did the same. We all did. It just depending on that extra step, that extra grind that everybody tried to give that I guess that the top guys getting the higher grade or getting into the programs. So luckily and very fortunately, I got into the program and then finished the junior year. I got a few internships. One was the one internship was actually at Lotus. At that time it was in Southfield, actually, it wasn't in Ann Arbor. It was at Southfield. I remember I was working at Lotus for a while. And then my second internship was at Ford. Ford was actually a very fun internship to be honest because, I got to give big compliments to Ford because I had a very good experience, the way they set up everything, the welcome packet, the residence, sort of the dormitory. And then the Ford trips and the tours and the assembly tours and the F-150 plant and all that, it was super fun. And then we also checked out a Ford GT, sort of racing through the proving ground. It was really fun. I mean as a naive student. It was like a very good exposure to what the industry was all about. But the funny thing with the Ford was actually because I have a lot of friends that work at Ford today. I actually didn't think I was going to get the Ford internship, because I actually, when the Ford recruiting team came, and they were recruiting the interns, I got the notice very last minute by our, I guess the admissions…

Tu Le:
Career opportunity center?

Frank Wu:
Career opportunity center, whatever. And I got a very late notice, and then I literally was preparing the portfolio very very last minute. I submitted the portfolio and then there was so many people waiting on line, the entire junior and sophomore year and senior everybody was applying. So I submitted it and then after I submitted it, they're like, okay, guys like, we'll call you if there's anything, then I literally just I went back home. So I went back home because and that time I lived in downtown Detroit, then CCS was at the Walter B. Ford building. So I got back and like students when there's like the interviews and stuff, you wear a T-shirt. And it was super-hot that day. I remember like summertime right before, and then like I was wearing like a tie and a white button shirt. It was so hot right when I got back, I like literally just ripped the tie apart. And then I like just ripped my shirt, and then I turn on the A/C and then opened up a nice cold coke. I wasn't drinking beer, but it was like, a nice cold coke. And then I was like just relaxing. And then what happened was suddenly I got a call, I was watching a movie or something. I forgot what I was doing. I know I was watching TV, I was watching like a movie or something. Because I was like, I think I don't know, I'm not sure was it a weekend or was it a weekday, but I didn't have class that day. And then somebody was calling me and then I looked up my phone and I didn't recognize the number. So I actually thought it was a debt collector calling me. I thought it was like the credit card debt collector calling me. So I didn't answer the phone. So later on, somebody left me a voicemail, and I check the voicemail. It says, hi, this is who who who from Ford HR, we would love to have an interview with you. Can you be here in 5 minutes? I was like, holy crap, 5 minutes. And then I literally, if you would have like recorded that scene, I literally jumped out of my couch. Then I just put on the button shirt. I didn't have time to button it. And I just grabbed the tie, ran for my car. And then literally just I speeded entire Woodward, I just literally speed all the way to the Walter B. Ford building. And I parked where I don't even know the ex-president of CCS, his name is called Rick Roger, I parked at Rick Roger’s parking spot. I ran to the interview studio. And then like the security guy was like, hey, hey, you can't park here. So I literally just ran, I just blasted into the interview room. And then I like as I was running, I was like buttoning my shirt and I was almost like one of the scenes from the Pursuit of Happiness, like when he was running from the jail right, to the interview. It was like that except I had my pants on. 

But anyways, then that's when I got there, arrived, we did the interview and it went really, really well. And then later on, I think they called me like a week later or 2 weeks later and said I got the intern and then that's when I did the intern at Ford and had a very, very good time. That time I remember Jay Mays, he was still there, he will stop by and he'll check out my sketches. Hey, that's cool sketch. And I’d say, thanks, Jay. He's a really really cool guy. There's a lot of talented designers, today they're all like doing really, really great. So I celebrate that moment and then the funny thing is I actually applied for a GM internship that same year. I got denied. It's really ironic, I actually got denied for the internship.

Tu Le:
How many designers do they hire for internships, typically?

Frank Wu:
Usually about two or three per year for the summer internship.

Tu Le:
So it's pretty hard to get then.

Frank Wu:
It's very, very selective, because they would also recruit students from Art Cent and all over the country, right? So Art Center or CCS, AAU and the other schools? So I applied for GM and I got a rejection letter. And then that's when I kind of gone to Ford. And then what happened was after the Ford internship was done, that's when I got an internship at Honda. And then that's when I flew to Tokyo. And it was in Saitama, completely different. So it's a very different culture, very different, very Japanese. It was quite serious to be honest. It wasn't as humorous and casual as Ford or GM but it was much more serious. I remember the supervisor. In China, we call it a “kezhang” or manager, supervisor, he is not really that high up, but he's kind of like a supervisor. The guy was like walking around the room, we got like a lot of interns, Honda took in lot of interns, 90% are all local Japanese students. Some are from like Tokyo Communication Arts, and some are from other art schools around the country. And then a few is from U.S. and a few is from Europe. And I think there was like one from Korea. And then everybody was like sketching like literally when we arrived and we started sketching like nobody like made any sound. It was like dead silent. And you got this like, the supervisor guy walking around in the lab coat that says Honda: Power of Dreams. And he would walk around and then he'll look at everybody's sketch. And the moment he sees like a cool sketch, he’ll be like, oh, nice, really cool. And then everybody is like trying to impress him, all the students are like trying to like explain their design. He's like: hm….so desu ne…., it was like, I remember him saying that like non-stop all day. So it was fun, like I said it was a very different culture, I had a very fun time, and it's such a beautiful country. I want to go there again. 

But what happened was right after I finished my internship in Japan, I got a call from Mazda. That was one of the actually a very big moment for me, because Mazda I remember man, they were doing some like hot stuff. They were doing some really cool stuff, groundbreaking design, for me. Like the Furai, remember the super car Furai. I think it was done by like I think it was Franz and Lawrence’s team. At that time, they were like superstars, to me, they're like my idols, right? But I think when I got the interview, I think they both left Mazda, and Ikuo Maeda son, he became the head of design. And then that's when the new design DNA was introduced. And then it was cool. It was super cool. So I was super excited. And then I took the Shinkansen from Tokyo to Hiroshima for the interview. Very, very awesome interview, the guys were really cool. And then it turned out great. And then what happened was when I was on my way back to Tokyo. That was when the biggest earthquake, I think, like the second biggest earthquake ever recorded. I think the first one was Peru, it was like a 9.2 or 9.4 magnitude earthquake. I actually was there during that the nuclear plant near the ocean. Fukushima, yeah. And it's very near Tokyo. But luckily, the actual tsunami didn't really hit Tokyo city, the epicenter. But a lot of the building, a lot of the roads, everything was very harshly damaged. So I was there until I got a plane ticket back to Detroit. And then again, that's a whole other story like that's literally like a whole movie. And then back to Detroit, that's when I was about to pretty much graduate. 

And then during the graduation show, we got a lot of the big OEM came in, a lot of the head of designs, they came in, and design directors and managers came in and checked out our work. And I remember the moment when Ed Welburn he walked, Ed is a super cool guy. I really respect that, because I think he's a very good leader. I think he's just a very good, not only somebody that has very good taste, but very, very visionary, but also just bottom line, very nice. And he was walking around the studio and he stopped by my work. And I remember the students were all standing by the wall like don't like bug the design bosses, don't like try to, just let people have a good time and check out your guys work, and if they're interested, then approach and present your work. So he stopped by my wall and he was looking at it for a while. And then like one of my classmates like, hey, Frank, you should go and like talk about your work. And I was like nervous, like, that's Ed Welburn. Like, what am I going to say? I don't know what to say. So then later on, I approach and then I greeted Ed. And I say, hi, Ed, I’m Frank, this is my work. And I quickly introduced three of my projects. And he was really, really interested in it. And then I talked about one of the projects was actually for the China market and talked a little bit about my background. And then we had a very good chat and then Ed handed me his business card and said, if you would like to have an interview, let me know. And I said I would love to and then Sheryl Garrett, who was responsible for the head of design recruiting. And she's an absolutely wonderful lady. And she scheduled the interview with me for the GM design interview and then it was like three weeks later. But at that time I actually got the job offer from Ford and from Lotus and also from Mazda and from Honda. So I was literally, because how the guys want to give you a job offer, they give you like, I think it was like 2 weeks, like grace period. So if you don't respond, then it's terminated. I was like, can we do it within like a week? Because I need to be able to have to decide. So anyways and then later on went to GM, did an interview. I met a few of the directors and the design managers. And that it was a very good interview. And then later on, I think it was like a week or a week and a half later, I got the email and it says, congratulations, you’ve been offered a role as a designer at the Cadillac Studio. And I was a Cadillac, that's a big honor! That’s when…

Tu Le:
Let me stop you there, Frank, were you interviewing for the GM design studio and they put you in Cadillac. Is that how that worked?

Frank Wu:
Yes, because they didn't tell you what studio you were going to be in when you were in it. I think they were probably just, because later on I was at GM for quite some time. So I know what the GM outreach and the recruiting and all that. When you are interviewing a student, you don't usually tell them anything. You just pretty much get to know them, have them introduce themselves, and you as a judge or an interviewer, you have to analyze what is best fit for that candidate, right? I was pretty much sort of introducing myself and my work. And then later on, they said, hey, would you like to be in Cadillac and I was like, heck yeah. And also Cadillac at that time, I remember another very memorable sort of thing is that when I was at CCS my freshman year, I actually sent an email to the director of Cadillac. His name is Bob Boniface. So Bob is a super nice guy. So Bob responded me back. I didn't think somebody at that sort of level would take the time to respond back to some random kid like, we all know how busy we can get sometimes, right? So Bob took his time and he sent me back like a very nice sweet message. And he's like, Frank, I wish you best of luck in CCS and everything. And that was actually my first boss, my only boss at Cadillac. So Bob, if Bob's listening, hope everything is well, really, really miss you. But anyways, Bob, hopefully everything is all good. But when I got in there my first day, I met a very, very dear mentor of mine. His name is Hoon Kim, so Hoon is a very, very talented designer. And he was sort of like my first direct report in the Cadillac Studio. And I went through a lot of, like as a young designer, there's so much to learn, right? So today when I recruit a young designer fresh out of college, you are like you should probably take a whole year to learn the trade. And that's what I was doing. And then how to understand the GPDP development process, how to understand going from a sketch to a scale model to a full-size model and then go from the full size to a sort of like what, a rapid prototype or a RP model, right? And then by that stage, everything has to be much more, the criterion of engineering has to be much more refined, and it's not, is no longer just the concept.

Anyway, so Hoon and also my manager at that time, Taki, Cadillac was just an awesome studio, so I had a very good time. Bob is a cool guy. Taki was a super nice guy, and then Hoon a very, very nice, just a good teacher I guess, like a mentor. Of course, we have a lot of other people that we met in the studio and in the GM Tech Center. I pretty much most of my time in Cadillac. Later on, my last year was in Buick, because Bob, he went to Buick. And then like, right, when I found out, I asked Bob, I was like Bob, wherever you go, I want to go. And that's when I transferred to Buick, and then did my last year there. Anyway, during my Cadillac time, a lot of memorable sort of things that happened and very, very beautiful memory. Worked on, my first project was CT6, worked on CT6 with a very talented team. We went from zero all the way to SOP and then like, again, there's a whole deep dive on a single project. There's so many people involved in and it was a very good first project experience as a young designer. And then later on, there's a few other projects obviously hasn't been publicly disclosed on the projects. But it's based on, let's say, that they'll make a platform. Then Escala was another one that was public unveiled. So Escala was also a very fun project.

Tu Le:
That was unveiled at Pebble Beach, right?

Frank Wu:
Yes, it was.

Lei Xing:
So when you started at Cadillac. This was roughly 10 years ago, roughly 11, 12. Is that correct?

Frank Wu:
Yeah like 11 or 12 years ago. 

Lei Xing:
Sure, and this is before Cadillac had decided to move their headquarters to New York, right? And then they moved it back to Warren or Detroit, right? Tu, you remember that, and also Frank. I actually visited Cadillac’s, what was it called in New York, in 2017, Cadillac House or something?

Tu Le:
Yeah, right. And Frank, I actually worked in the Tech Center at the Cadillac building, at the Tech Center, if you remember that.

Frank Wu:
Yeah, I remember it very well, Cadillac Building. But it was a very, very, Cadillac obviously is one of the deep heartfelt memory that I’ve had as a professional car designer since graduation. And spend most of my career time there and obviously met a lot of talented designers, a lot of great people, not just designers, just great people like we have very talented cast modelers and then very talented clay modelers, some of the best in the world clay modelers and also superstar cast modelers, and everybody has different personas right. Everybody has their numbers and place. Some people are super talented, but they're very hard to work with. But you have to get to understand how to work with them. And that I think that was part of the experience. Because when you just graduate from college, you're not used to working with other people. Because when you're in college you're all on your own, right, you're working on your own project, you're going to class and you just everything you kind of on your own. And I think college, one of the things I would actually really suggest is to have more collaboration projects between cross function professions or students. Because it's actually a very important part of life actually, that's something that I think a lot of times in college, at least for me, it wasn't very, very, very exposed to.

Tu Le:
Let's do this Frank, because we don't want to keep you forever, and we have a ton of questions, because we want you to talk about JIDU and stuff too. So maybe we fast forward to what brought you back to China.

Frank Wu:
So I think it was end of 2017. So it was early 2018. So what happened was I always knew that I was going to one day work in China. I just didn't know when. And I knew that when I just graduated from college, it wasn't at that time. It wasn't the right time for me, because I felt like I really wanted to be able to learn as much as possible from the some of the best team in the world, right? The car design team in the world. And that's pretty much exactly what I did. And I think after the first project, second project, and the third project, I felt like it still wasn't the right time. And I felt like it had to be at least like 4 to 5 projects for me to be able to really understand the process from 0 to 1, and be able to learn your mistakes and be able to call it like, re-enhance these mistakes so you don't make the same mistakes for the next project, right?

During that time, I think was like late 2017, I got an opportunity to be able to connect with the management team in Beijing for Beijing Auto, like I mentioned. They flew me to Beijing and then I chatted with them, I think it was just like a one-hour conversation. But what happened was I never worked in China. I didn't know what it was going to be like. It was literally kind of like walking into the unknown. But then I felt like it was a very, very big company. They had a very long history. It was actually ranked top five in China for the largest OEM. I thought there was a lot of potential and a lot of growth. Let's put it that way, right? As a designer for me to be able to do something a little bit more, I guess, better design. So like, because I felt like some of the old products that they did, it was kind of lackluster and it wasn't very, very, I guess, very, very professional, but that's a whole long history, right? That's a whole long history.

Anyway, so I thought there was a lot of room for growth. And the conversation was really good. And then that's when I decided to pretty much take that leap of faith and be able to start a whole new journey. And then I started actually, I think was like January 1 in 2018 in Beijing, so I first moved to Beijing. When I was moving to China. my family in Shanghai, they were asking me why are you going to Beijing? Why are you not in Shanghai. So I told them I said I wanted to try out different places and also Beijing is the capital of China and I thought it was definitely an interesting place to be able to live and experience. So I didn't really think too much to be honest. I just thought it was a very good opportunity and I just wanted to give it a shot. And then like I said, I always knew I wanted to come to China to work. The market is literally the biggest market in the world now. So that was the beginning journey. 

Tu Le: 
So you're in Beijing, you're working for Beijing Auto in 2018, right? 

Frank Wu:
Correct. And I was there for 3 years, and it was a very different kind of experience. It wasn't, it wasn't necessarily for me, I guess, we had a lot of projects, right? So we had a lot of projects. And there's a lot of different models, and then the timing was all quite, quite condensed. And we have to get new cars out and model year and facelifts out very fast, like I said, like, if I can try to make a very good example for everybody to get to understand one of the differences. At GM like I said, let's say, if there's 18 months to 24 months of design, that time is very, I guess, consistent. So there's a consistent progress throughout each month, and there's these milestones, there's these deliverables. But when I was in Beijing, I guess what happened is from my understanding was that the product planning team, they wanted to do something very fast, so they would quickly initiate like a study, almost like an advanced study but more of a project study where they call it “yuyan” right? In Chinese they call it “yuyan.” And then there's the “lixiang” right? So “lixiang” is when you initiate the actual official project, but “yuyan” is like very low cost, low budget, where they just pretty much take out a few million RMB and start to have the design team working on the potential vehicle. And what happens is that they actually condense that time very very small where we have to spend like a lot of time, a lot of energy quickly get out cars super-fast for the top management to review. 

Because they want to look at it as soon as possible without spending too much money, right? So they look at the hard model and they're like this car is not bad. Maybe we can do this, right? And then that's when they initiate the actual kickoff, the actual projects. And then that's when there's a lot of new inputs that comes in. So what happened is that let's say we have like only I don't know, like, let's say, 6 months to do the pre-stage of the project for the design where you literally had to pretty much finish the design in 6 months. And then after the 6 months period, that's when they kickoff the project. And then that's when the project, the product planning, the program, the finance, the engineering, right? They all come in and start to evaluate your design and say: oh this is over cost, this we cannot make, right this we don't have the ability to do this, we don't have the ability to do that, this supplier we cannot support or this we don't have the supply for whatever it is.

So anyway, so there's a lot of late inputs, I guess, for me, it's kind of late input because the car we spend so much energy to get it done in the first 6 months. And then later on, we have to change everything. So essentially, that 14 months actually become longer in the course of the whole project, because there's so many late inputs, right? Like I said, so, and then this is not just for one project, but for pretty much every project. So then I’m not trying to be negative or anything. I'm just pretty much trying to speak from my experience what I’ve encountered, right? Because I was pretty much in charge of the entire brand design from exterior to interior, to color and trim, to modeling, and then UI.

Tu Le:
Were you doing the ICE vehicles or were you doing the ARCFOX, or?

Frank Wu:
Both. No, not the ARCFOX. ARCFOX….

Lei Xing:
The Beijing brand, right?

Frank Wu:
Yeah, ARCFOX, they wanted me to work on the ARCFOX, but it was just way too much work. I wasn't going to be able to do all that because just for the Beijing brand, I think it was just think about it, because if I tell people there's no way they're going to believe me because they're going to be like Frank, that's impossible like never even heard of something like that. In the course of 3 years, I worked on 24 to 25 projects in 3 years. 

Lei Xing:
Yeah, Beijing had a lot of models.

Frank Wu:
Just imagine when I, because, that was a good question Tu, because you ask is that ICE or EV, it was both. And to what Lei was saying that they actually have a lot of models. So imagine like for ICE all the models times that by two, because a lot of them are, in Chinese we call it “yougaidian” right? So it's like they integrate from the ICE into the BEV. So it's not an all new architecture. So I literally, so if it was just ICE then probably it would have been like 12 projects with the model year facelift and all-new and maybe concept cars. But because it was ICE and EV, and then the Beijing brand they had the Beijing ICE and the Beijing EV, right? Like the EU5, the EU7, and I think was like that, what was the internal code name, we call it C10. So imagine all those projects were like, hey, why don’t we get a quick start, and then do a design and then do like a quicker like RP model. And then later on will evaluate if the design is good and if it fits like a potential competitive sort of product in the marketplace. So when they, like I said, when they decide that, and then that's when they officially kick off the project and then, there's so much new inputs. I mean, literally, the amount of new inputs will require you to redesign the whole car. So that's a very different kind of experience to your question. If it's different than…

Tu Le:
There is not a traditional design freeze then is that what you're kind of saying? Like it's more iterative?

Frank Wu:
Yeah, there's actually that's a very good question. Actually, there isn't. Because anybody, not anybody, but at a certain level of management, like a very high-level management, at any point, they can pretty much come in and say, I don't like this design. And I’m not going to support it and we should stop it. And then suddenly everything stops. I’m talking like a pretty high-level guy, not a director, or like some sort of, let's say the VP of sales he can come in one day, he's having, I’m just saying like, let's say if, he's having a bad day or maybe he saw something that suddenly changes his mind. He can send a WeChat like a message and say, I don't think we should work on this project anymore and suddenly just stops, right? Or let's say we have these design reviews and then there's so many people that comes and look at the car and everybody gives inputs, right? Everybody's like everybody, I guess, again, I'm just simply talking about the difference to get people kind of a perspective here. I want to be as positive and I guess, as objective as possible here. When you're at a certain type of company that the culture is very different, it's not saying that people have bad intent. I just think that they're just kind of used to that kind of process, right? Like these high up management, they want to feel like there's a sense of presence for them, and then that they have a say, I guess, right?

So when you have a design review, so first of all, there's three levels of design review. There's level three, which is between the design team and the engineering team and the program team. That's the level three review. And the level three review is when the head of the program, or like, let's say at GM, it will be like a chief executive chief engineer, right? The head of the program. He's good. And then he'll set up a meeting for a Level two. Level two is when they invite the VP of sales, VP of brand, VP of R&D, and then maybe a few other cross functions, right? So they'll come in and then the CEO. So again, at Beijing, the CEO, the PM, with the head of the project or the program. These guys are they're all really nice guys. I got along with them very, very well. So we would be able to have a very common language and be able to make things a lot more efficient. But what I’m saying is that…

Tu Le:
Always constructive, always constructive discussions then.

Frank Wu:
Right. Because they're all nice guys. They're all very smart. They know what you're talking about. It's just that a lot of times that was how it was before. That was how it was before. And the CEO will come. And again, that's a Level Two review. So Level Two review you got like usually about like ten guys or maybe sometimes 15. And then they'll come, and then you got to please everybody. So that's the hard part. So your design got to pass every single body’s vote in order to pass Level Two. And then obviously the biggest vote is from the CEO right? But sometimes somebody like, especially like the head of sales, he can say, I don't like this design, I don't think it's going to sell well in the market. And then suddenly what happened is in China, we call it giving face, right? So the CEO might not say anything, right? Because nobody wants to step on each other's toes. So what happened is then you got to change it. And luckily, when I was there for the 3 years, that didn't really happen, and then you might find that shocking. Actually I went through a lot of design reviews, and we hardly not past the review, most times we would pass the review. And then the reason why was because before the review, I actually had to go and talk to each one of them almost. I had to like invite them to the studio. I want to show them the car, to let them express what they have to say so then they don't say it like at the review at a, like in the NFL we call it blitz, right? So there's no blitz coming on a Level Two review and then causing me to go back to the drawing board and then…(

Tu Le:
You don't get sabotaged, basically.

Frank Wu:
Right, so I’ll invite people over to the studio and have them look at it. And then the funny thing is when there's a one on one, so when they're one or one with you, they're much more chill, they're much more expressive. And there's none of that I'm the boss kind of thing. It's more like, hey, I think that's kind of cool. What do you think of this? What do you think of that? There's a very, very nice, constructive conversation. But when there's a group of big bosses, right? That's when everybody's like trying to flex their muscle. And it's a very different kind of design review kind of scene. It's for me, I feel like it's not what a lot of designers want to see. But luckily, again, we passed most of all the reviews. 

So after the Level Two review, then there's a Level One. So that's the big boss review. That's the chairman review. And the chairman review, we call the DRC right? Even in GM they call it DRC but GM DRC it's different terms. GM DRC means design review China. So you got the boss from GM China coming in, looking at the design at the GM Tech Center in Warren. But for us, DRC is design review chairman. It's essentially very, very, the very high position review. And the chairman can come in and then if he likes it, then it's pretty much done deal. I mean not really, but pretty much done deal. When I said not really, because even if the chairman likes that, a lot of times people in the working level, they might not support it, right? And if they don't support it and they'll make your job a little bit harder. But for most cases, when chairman review is passed, that's when everybody pretty much enforce what the command is going to be. 

So luckily, when I was at Beijing, our previous chairman, Chairman Xu, he's a super nice guy, so he's a very straightforward guy. He's very straightforward. He's very respectful to the designers. Like when I was presenting to him, he was very, very respectful to me. He listened to my advice as a professional. He's the kind of guy where you know he's got a very high, very high, like a leadership kind of EQ, right? It's like he doesn't say things that might make other people feel like, you don't really know what you're talking like. He respects people, and then he let people express their feedback and their thoughts. And then he'll just kind of give a prospective comment on how he feels, without you feeling like he's trying to tear your design apart. So that was the fun part. And I really liked Chairman Xu. Some people they might give you a feedback like they're the design director, like they're the professional. And I think it's kind of quite common cases, in certain companies. But anyways, with that said, I think it was a great experience. I think it was great that I’ve learned so much in terms of how to be able to communicate with people, how to be able to create good cross functional relationships and get other functions to be able to support design, and be able to push design to at least the limit in terms of in that environment, as good as it can possibly be. And obviously, through that journey, there's so many other things like, and Tu and I spoke yesterday. And like I said, like creating a good product is not just design. It's a cohesiveness of everything combined. It's a great design, it's great engineering, it's great product itself, which is user experience and ergonomics and comfortability, driving experience, technology, UI/UX on the whole HMI part. And then be able to brand it very well, then price it at a very accurate or very, I guess, reasonable price point for what the market you're trying to get into. And then collectively, that becomes a very successful product.

So I feel like, again, like when I was there, I feel like there was more reliance on the design or what I almost didn't feel like it was on design, I almost felt like it was more relying on styling. I feel like there's a difference between styling and design, like design is when you can literally define the product from 0 to 1, on the formability, on the philosophy, on the package, on the SOR, on the content, on the usability, on everything, right, on the engineering part, even, to me that's design. And styling is when everything's already set, the architecture, the package, the cost, and all it's already set and then, they give it to the styling team, and they say, okay, now make it look good, right? And you don't really have too much boundaries to change. You can't change the hood height. You can’t change the tire track, you can’t change the rim size, you can’t change the height of the car, you cannot change the structure of the seats, you cannot change the H point. In that kind of case, which a lot of times, that's how it is.

Tu Le:
So you're saying this styling is more like aesthetics than form, right?

Frank Wu:
Well, I think styling is aesthetics and form, but I think it's very limited in terms of how much of the form you can change. So, like, let's say, let's say a lot of designers, they want to push the A-pillar back, right? We call it the dash to axle sort of relationship. But if you have a restricted architecture, you can't do that, right? If your firewall and your H point is all the way in the front, then it's going to require to change the whole architecture in order for, or at least change a very large part of the architecture in order to achieve what the designer want. In that case, you're limited. So it's almost like you're handcuffed by the limitation of the engineering. To me, then it becomes more of a styling over the package, right? But design is like, let's say, if something that's modular, and you're designing exactly how you want it, based on the formability, based on the feasibility, based on the whole architecture, meeting the best user experience and the criteria as a collective whole. And then you have to make it look good because that's part of your job, right? So I feel like there's definitely a difference between the limitation part, right? And that's how much it can empower you as a designer to be able to push that and do something, I think, little bit more groundbreaking. Let's just put groundbreaking, right? I think that's a good term, as like in order to create a groundbreaking product, the designer, I think, has to have a lot of say, and a lot of influence or having the power to push for big changes, to enable that groundbreaking aesthetic or groundbreaking product design as a whole, right? But when you're restricted with a certain amount of area or restrict the canvas to do this design, there's not really much room for groundbreaking push. When the supplier pretty much all have the same technology, when the engineering pretty much use existing platforms that was developed for, let's say, 5 years ago, or even sometimes 10 years ago, right? And then because of the whole manufacturing business case that they don't want to reinvest on a new architecture, that is going to create a lot of restrictions, right? These are realities of what designers have to go through each and every day, right?

Again, I think I’m talking a little bit deep here about, with the restriction. But so back to what I was saying earlier is that when I was in Beijing, I learned a lot, and I think for me, it was another critical part of experience as a designer for me to be able to understand what other functions are really thinking. Why do they want it that way? Because I think a very big thing is that I really encourage is as a designer don't sit in your cube or in your desk all day. Some designers they don't want to talk to anybody, right? They just want to like put on their headphones and just sketch. To me, I feel like, is that a designer, or is that a stylist, right? Like somebody that's just making cool sketch? Like I would say, like a very good designer is somebody that's constantly out talking to the engineers, talking to the product team, talking to the product planning team, talking to the product marketing team, talking to the branding team, talking to all these guys, have lunch, have dinner, go out, and don't just talk about work, but also talk about like social stuff too.

But to be able to over the course of the years, like I said, what I did was I did it over the course of 3 years, right? I didn't do it in 3 months. And then I got to really understand where they're coming from. And then I really kind of almost learn like a real MBA in a way, right? Like how what is a business case? Like, what is the BOM? Why are things calculated that way? What is our ROI and what is the manufacturing strategy for us to why is it so important to create an opponent strategy right? Why a lot of times engineers want to like carry over everything, right? There's a reason, I mean designer sometimes they just want to, make very, very cool, very pretty pictures, but we got to understand, reality of a design is something that you've got to build, and you got to sell and the company got to be able to make a profit. It's a not just like a single one-off piece of art, or let's say I don't know, like even for somebody like my father as a  sculptor, like he can make something super cool. And it's a one-off thing, right? And that he can put it online and if anybody's willing to pay for the price that he's asking, great. And then there's probably never going to be another one unless he makes a cast or mold of it and then just duplicate it, right? But the same thing, right? So even the moment he decides to cast a mold and duplicate it, it becomes a big business case. So then he's got to have to calculate how much material cost it's going to be, how many pieces is he going to make? What's the lifecycle or the life age of the mold itself, right? How many pieces is he going to recreate, and how is he going to sell it? Is he going to rent a store, all that is part of the BC. So as a designer, I think a lot of times they only think from just how to create a sculpture. But the whole business case is on the bottom of the iceberg that a lot of times we don't see. So again, that is I guess, a lot of the experience and a lot of the things that I’ve learned when I was in Beijing.

And at the same time to be able to understand the Chinese market, the Chinese customer, we go to the first, I mean we talk about first tier cities, Shanghai, everybody knows Shanghai. We talk we go to, we're in Beijing, Shenzhen in Chinese, we call it Beishangguang, right? So those are all like the first-tier cities. But a lot of times is that designers need to understand first tier cities only have a small fraction of the entire population in China. A lot of the customers are actually in third, 4th, 5th, 6th tier cities. Nobody ever goes there and really do like real survey and real study and understand how much money per capita do these people make? What are the average professions? How much, what is your life, I guess what you call it, like the lifestyle, right? What kind of things do they buy? Do they buy Xiaomi? First tier cities, you'll see a huge population buying Apple phones, iPhones, right? So iPhones. And then second tier cities, you'll see between iPhones and Huawei, right? Then third tier cities, you'll start seeing more Xiaomi or Oppo or other brands. And then third and 4th, 5th tiers, you're going to start seeing less and less iPhones. And then maybe the entry models or cheaper models of the Huawei or more Xiaomi, right? And then this is called like the market whereas a designer, you got to understand the real market, not just saying I read a book or I read some article and suddenly I know about Chinese market, or I did a concept car for Beijing Auto Show and suddenly I know about the Chinese market. You got to go to the third, 4th, 5th, 6th tier cities and you got to live there, and you got to be able to do mass surveys, go to people, knock on people's houses and then go show them like photos of cars or photos of fashion and electronics. And then, they will actually tell you a very, very objective answer based on what they will buy and why they will buy it. They'll tell you they won't buy..

Tu Le:
The use cases will be completely different too, so.

Frank Wu:
Exactly. You're absolutely right, it’s because when you have that clear objective data or survey, then you start to understand that as a designer, when you design first tier city products, it's no longer the same user experience as the third or fourth tier city products. Does that make sense? Because their needs are very different?

Tu Le:
Yeah, for sure.

Frank Wu:
And the cost ratio and then I guess what they appreciate or what kind of priority that they seek tend to be different than first tier cities. Anyway, so again, this is just another example I’m just talking about, but there's so many other examples, right? We're probably not going to be able to talk about all these in the next hour, but you know what I mean so this is just one thing.

Tu Le:
Go ahead.

Lei Xing:
No, I was just going to say, Frank, this is the first time that I’ve heard the distinction between styling and design. So this is great. And also, we spent the last hour and a half talking about the past, but we really want to talk about the present and the future, which is JIDU. We're going to have to ask you to stay a bit longer because this is fascinating.

Frank Wu:
Sure, that’s fine. I told Tu yesterday. I wanted to give you guys some more time, because I was actually…

Lei Xing:
So let's talk about JIDU. How did you get to JIDU? And some of the process that you had to face, especially during this recent Shanghai lockdown, how that affected your whole cadence of these announcements, right? Because you're supposed to announce JIDU during the auto show, but that was delayed, and all these got messed up. So talk about your journey to JIDU quickly, and then the kind of the process of…

Tu Le:
Because what's really interesting is that you went to two established companies whether it's in the U.S. or it's China, really have long traditions, and then you go on to this joint venture that's a separate entity.

Lei Xing:
The newest kid on the block.

Tu Le:
Yeah, so can you tell us how you got recruited and then how your first few days or first few weeks were?

Frank Wu:
Yeah, so those are very good questions. So I guess let me organize them based on timeline. So I got a call from somebody that knows Robin. Let's just put it that way, somebody that knows Robin Li (Founder & CEO of Baidu). And then asked me and actually first kind of told me a little bit about, I guess what Baidu wants to do with potentially creating an intelligent car company. And who's going to the CEO.

Tu Le:
JIDU didn't exist at the time, right? 

Lei Xing:
This was before the announcement?

Frank Wu:
This was way before the announcement. This was back in January, the announcement was in March. So anyway, the following person introduced me a little bit about, I guess, what the plan of creating what we know today as JIDU, and told me about who the CEO was going to be. And that's Joe, so Joe (Yiping) Xia, he's our CEO, and introduce, I didn't know Joe at that time, but that person introduced me to Joe. And then before I met Joe, I got to know a little bit about Joe through the fellow person, and then told me that Joe's background and his international background and also not only in the automotive industry, but also in the tech space, Mobike, right. And a lot of, I guess more of artificial intelligence, AI and software and intelligent vehicle. And then obviously also Mobike, which was a very big venture. So I was actually quite impressed. Obviously, you are confirmed that you're going to join the company. For me, I was going to join the company after I meet Joe, and obviously Robin, and be able to have a conversation like today, like, be able to deep dive and get to know each other.

And then when I met Joe, it was, we had a 5-hour conversation that was just like literally like we were just literally talking about, like it was kind of like this, right? What's great about today's conversation is that we got really into the conversation. And then we're talking about what we wanted to do. And he asked me what would you do as a designer? How would you design this car? How would you essentially design this robot car, or what we call the robocar? And I was kind of explaining my thoughts, and it was a very, very deep discussion. So anyways, so there was a lot of strategy discussion, future potential, products, and the market space. And then like where JIDU is going to be placed in the sort of the EV space, right, or the EV intelligence space. And then ended up to be a 5-hour conversation. And after that, I was like, this guy is the guy that I want to work for, because he's so clear minded like, I got to tell you, I work really, really hard. I like I’ve been working a lot of hours, like 14 hours a day, 16 hours a day. But I got to tell you like, Joe, as a CEO, this guy works harder than me. Like no joke, like no joke, I got to give it to you guys like, the efficiency of a company is all about how hard the leader as a role model or as somebody that's like pushing the front line of the battle to work and show the prime example. So Joe like, he works super hard. This guy is literally like he has multiple conference calls, when he's in the taxi, when I’m in the taxi with him, he's in a conference call, or he's on his laptop like returning somebody's email. When I’m on the airplane, he's on the mobile phone with a wireless, and then like writing the strategy or returning somebody's email or talking to an investor like he's non-stop. This guy is like a machine. I think I’m a machine, but I’m like if I compared to him like, that's another level like. This is the crazy part. The crazy part is when you think you're good enough, you realize there's somebody better than you. When you think you're smart enough, you'll realize that there's somebody smarter than you. When you think you work your butt off and possibly out of 24 hours and work 16 hours a day, there's nobody that can work harder than you. And then you realize, wow, somebody's working harder than you. So anyways, so I really admire Joe and I look up to him and then he really shows me what an incredible leader he is. And I also met Robin in the very early stage in Beijing actually originally was supposed to be a half hour conversation, it turned out to be a 2-hour conversation.

And again, it was because we were so into our conversation of what JIDU was possibly going to be. But obviously, Robin spoke to me more of what he thought JIDU was going to be and also asked me what kind of cars that I thought was appropriate for JIDU and why, right? That was a very, very nice discussion. I mean, Robin, he's probably like I'm guessing probably one of the nicest billionaires. I don't know how many billionaires I’ve met, but he's the only person I’ve met as a billionaire, but he's the nicest billionaire that I think that I will ever meet. He's super nice. He's very humble, very down to earth. He doesn't, he doesn't act like he's a billionaire, he's just super chill. Looks just like any one of us, right? Just a very, very cool tech guy. So that's the moment I knew I was going to join the company, because I and then that time, first few months, to be honest, the first few months I didn't even have any salary. But why did I do it? It was because it was a startup. I felt like this, if we put in the effort, we put in the hard work and we put in the grind. And then if the direction is correct, and if we hire the right people for the team to be able to all work together and deliver this amazing product, the hard work will pay off, but obviously hard work you got to have the right direction. If the direction is wrong, then you're just going to go to the wrong direction from the very beginning, right?

 We are working, pretty much working really hard every day, push through our product as soon as possible into the market. During this wave, we all hope that things get better, and I’m sure it will get better, it always does. It's a very natural cycle of how the social economy usually work.

Tu Le:
You guys have a compressed timeline with everything, too, right? Like you're used to the longer timelines for product development, right?

Frank Wu:
You know, that's a very, very good question, because at GM back then, it was like 18-24 months for the design timeline. And we have very talented design, a very, very professional team. And then obviously, I think there's more than enough time to work on a project. And then obviously I worked at the Cadillac Studio for quite some time. When I went to China, I think I suddenly I quickly very used to, or not used to, quickly became adapted to the new timeline. And then eventually obviously very used to it because it was the way it was. And then that kind of compressed the time between, I guess, like 14-16 months. But like I was telling you the other day, right, different companies they operate efficiency differently. And for JIDU right now, literally, we're taking all the experiences from everybody. This is not just myself, but from the head of engineering, from myself and the design team, and then we have product team. And then our product team is very different than the traditional OEM, our product team is more like a technology company. So all the product use case, the PRD and we have these product definition before we even start the project. So we have everything all set up. And everybody is aligned with the same objective before we kick off. That's when literally we're like rock the efficiency so high, we make decisions so fast. We call each other, literally. I like right now, it's a 10 pm call. I was telling Tu yesterday, I was like 10pm call is considered an early call for me. I guess a late call will be maybe like a 3am call or 4am call. That would be a late call. So like if you call me at 4am I would probably think you don't want to wait till the next day, so it's probably something urgent. But if you call me around 12:30 or 1am, I would probably think you just want to talk about something that you want to get done tomorrow, just kind of go over.

So that's kind of the system and culture that our startup company is all about. And it's really like a startup mentality. We grind and we work very hard as a team, and we cut out a lot of time that is pretty much inefficient, and that is wasted in a normal, larger corporation when there's so many levels of decision making. There's so many reviews, right? There's the program review, there's the finance review, there's the product planning review, there's the engineering review, there's the design review, and let alone the design review, it’s probably like one of the most out of the entire process. And then forget about, obviously, there's the engineering review. 

Tu Le:
Sounds like these Cadillac nightmares are coming back in your head. When you just said that.

Frank Wu:
I wouldn't say Cadillac nightmare. To be honest I've actually had a very good time and experience at Cadillac. I just think that it's just very, very different. There's a handful of people that are much more used to the bigger corporation sort of product development cycle period. They can be able to have more than enough time to be able to develop something and to them I also honor where they're coming from, right? Because I was there myself. There's a lot more time. There's a lot more sort of, I guess, room for how would I say this, more room for mistakes. What I mean by that isn't necessarily the delivering a product that is a mistake, but what I’m saying is throughout the process of the product development, there's probably mistakes, and there's probably inefficient or indecisive decisions that they have more than enough time to be able to turn that around throughout the process. For us, because we work at such a super high efficient status or level, time is literally everything, right? So we have no room for mistakes. So everything that we do, all the decisions that we make has to be brainstormed over and over and over. I mean we brainstorm throughout the weekend, we brainstorm throughout literally like around the clock, and then that's what I guess makes our company so special is because people that do join JIDU, they have so much passion in trying to really create something that is so incredible. And then it might sound kind of naive to certain people, but it really, it’s not. It's kind of like Tesla when it began. And I think Elon Musk obviously retained this very, very, strong, passionate work culture. And it's all about efficiency. It's all about user experience, and it's all about working from the customer experience point of view, right? That is how essentially over the course of like 5-10 years, Tesla’s product became more dominant and more dominant over the course of the years become the global dominant automotive or technology automotive maker, right?

And I remember then back in like 2011 and 2010, when the Tesla Model S, the first generation was showcased at the North American International Auto Show. And I remember like everybody was bashing the car, everybody was like, somebody that said good things about that car got bashed by other people. It's like we're sitting at a bar in Detroit because we're talking about Detroit. People are chatting across the street from the Cobo Center, right? We were just talking about, hey, what do you think of the latest, the good car of the year this year, people list them out and what do you think are the cars that it's like sketchy or don't really have a potential to succeed? And then people talk about it. Anyways. So I think again, it's a great experience for me as a car designer throughout my career. I think if you asked me like, do I regret to work at a certain place? Absolutely not. I absolutely honor and respect all the past experiences that I’ve had and also all the I think incredible colleagues that I’ve met but I think now I’m at a different type of, sort of a company, sort of a mission, a different type of company culture. And then we were so driven to do the best.

Tu Le:
I think you made a good point, too, because I think currently there are still some car companies that are still very product centered instead of user centered, right? And I think as technology becomes more prevalent in everything, not just cars, the user interface and the user centered design needs to take precedence, right? I do remember that because I was working in Silicon Valley, and I saw some of the Tesla Roadsters and then they contacted me. I was working at Apple at the time, and they wanted to recruit Apple employees to come work in the sourcing teams and all that stuff. And I was like, dude, this company is like, not going to survive. And so now look at them.

Frank Wu:
Yeah, a lot of people doubted, seriously like everybody, not everybody, but almost everybody. Or I would say a lot of people didn't really take them seriously. Let's put it that way, right?

Tu Le:
Yeah, let me ask you this, when you were initially having these conversations with Robin and Joe, did they tell you about this compressed timeline. And how intimidating was that?

Frank Wu:
It wasn't really intimidating, to be honest, because I was literally up for anything. Like I tell you like, I don't know about you guys, but there's certain point of your life when there's something that is so, like you believe in so much, that you just kind of close your eyes and you kind of quickly walk through the timeline, and then you quickly put in a few milestones and few gates and realize this is doable. You know what I mean? You know it's not like I had no idea what the hell I was doing, right? I like I knew, like from 0 to 1, how to do it. And then I just need to put together a picture on how to do it in a very efficient way. Because like I said, a lot of times in other companies, a lot of the time is being wasted, a lot of times being wasted in, like I just make very clear example of, just the review itself, right? Sometimes somebody says something and then suddenly you're going back to the drawing board and then there you go, three months gone or six months gone. Actually, three months for design, but for the project is actually longer because engineering team is also delayed, right? Manufacturing team, assembly team is also delayed, so everything gets delayed, so then it becomes like six months or nine months.

Lei Xing:
This is your co-host Lei Xing. Listening to Frank talk about his life journey, you can tell that he is very detail oriented and has really good photographic memory. Of all the guests we’ve had so far on the MAX episode, no one has shared more intimate details of their personal, educational and professional journeys than Frank has. These obviously shaped who he is as a person and as a design professional. The two moments along that journey that stood out for me the most were the moment that he knew he wanted to get into automotive design and the moment that he knew he wanted to join JIDU. Coincidentally, the day before we recorded this episode, Frank had informed us that JIDU had won the coveted redot award (as it turned out later, it received one each for the ROBO-01 concept and the Robo Charger), so congrats to Frank again on this huge recognition. Stay tuned for Part II of this two part MAX series as Frank goes into more detail about the culture and processes at JIDU, his design philosophy, features of the ROBO-01 and critique of some of the recent smart EV model reveals. 

Tu Le:
Lei and I will be sharing more of conversations with the men & women around the world moving the EV/AV mobility sectors forward as part of this China EVs & More MAX series. Some folks will be instantly recognizable, but some will just be people that are doing amazing in the space that we think deserve to be highlighted.

Don’t worry though, Lei and I will continue to host our live weekly China EVs & More Twitter Spaces room that summarizes that week’s most important news coming out of the China EV, AV and mobility space. For those that can’t catch the live show, you can find the China EVs & More pod on all major platforms or wherever you get your podcasts. As EV adoption reaches its global tipping point, it’ll be even more important to stay updated on everything that’s happening here. Lei & I are confident that China EVs & More is THE best resource to do that. Until next time, as always, thanks for listening!

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