China EVs & More

Episode #76 - VW Group Dismisses Diess, Driving a few cars from 🇨🇳 EV Inc

August 14, 2022 Tu Le & Lei Xing
China EVs & More
Episode #76 - VW Group Dismisses Diess, Driving a few cars from 🇨🇳 EV Inc
Show Notes Transcript

In this special episode Tu and Lei unpack the dismissal of Herbert Diess, former VW Group Global CEO and the promotion of Oliver Blume, current head of Porsche to replace Diess.

The 2nd half of the episode focuses on Tu's experience testing out a number of electric vehicles over a two week period with Inside China Auto's Mark Rainford.

The electric vehicles they tested or tried out:
Polestar 2
Li Auto L9
Evoke Motorcycles Urban Classic
Zeekr 001
XPeng P7

They also made a special visit to Baidu Apollo to check out the just unveiled RT6, Apollo's 6th generation Level 4 capable robotaxi. 

**We apologize for the audio quality issues.**

CEM Episode #76
Recorded July 28, 2022


Tu Le:
Hi, everyone and welcome to China EVs & More where my co-host Lei Xing and I will go over the week's most important and interesting news coming out of the China EV, AV & mobility sectors. We will open the room up at around the 40-minute mark to anyone who's keen to ask us any questions. If you enjoy this room, please help us get the word out to other enthusiasts and tune in again next week. 

My name is Tu Le. I'm the managing director at SinoAuto Insights, a management consultancy that helps organizations bring innovative and tech-focused products and services to the transportation and mobility sectors. I write a free weekly newsletter that we pull many of our discussion topics from. You can sign up for it at sinoutoinsights.com, which I encourage you all to do. Hey, Lei good evening. Can you please introduce yourself.

Lei Xing:
Good morning, Tu, a hung up Tu. This is your co-host Lei Xing, former chief editor of China Auto Review, and this is episode #76. There's really two topics today, but obviously there's a lot more. Diess dismissed, we'll talk about that. And Tu and Mark goes on this EV fact finding test driving, trip in Beijing. So, which one do you want to start?

Tu Le:
So let's just talk Diess. I've kind of beaten a dead horse with my newsletter. So I'd love your take, because like you said, I’m trying not to dunk on them too much.

Lei Xing:
We've already dunked on Volkswagen countless times on the show. It doesn't matter that we dunk on it one more time, right? But no, I think we agree that the way to describe it was shocking but not surprising, correct? Shocking, in the sense, there were no, nothing in terms of kind of forewarning, right, that this was going to happen. And especially after he had sent out that happy holidays LinkedIn message. And later on it turned out to be a goodbye message instead. And I think when he sent that out, he already knew that he was gone, right? Because based on all the reports that we've seen this was a week in the making actually, this decision, it wasn't, it was abrupt to us, but inside it was in the making for, well actually it's been in the making for months and years, right, given that what Diess had to face. And you had mentioned in your newsletter, the three clans, the Porsche and Piech family, the works council and the Lower Saxony state. And the reporting is based on that, what 20 board member all unanimously agreeing to sack him, right? That's the shocking part, but not surprising because we've seen the news, we've seen what's been discussed either rumors, or. And then Diess kind of dodged it, right, several times. But then this happened. So I think it was, my take not so much on a dunking, but rather, I think Diess was scapegoated a little bit. But on the other hand, I think his time was over, because his role, his role, I believe, was to turn around this ship, not make it go faster, and he did his job, but he has to go because he was, he is an outsider coming in from BMW, so he brought something new, he kind of changed the mentality. I think his top priority was what get that “dieselgate” image, eliminate that image from Volkswagen when he came on, he did it. It was all about EVs, EVs, EVs, right? MEB and then all the strategies, New Auto, all these things that he did. Strategically I think it was the right move, but execution wise, I think you also mentioned this, there was some flaws, there were some hiccups that kind of finally led to him being sacked. So shocking, but not surprising. That's my take. But I think credit needs to be due where it is, right? So it's unfortunate, but life moves on, because if there is any auto company with this boardroom drama, it is Volkswagen, there's no other auto company in the world, with the supervisory board, with the works council, with Lower Saxony, right? There's no other company in the world that has more boardroom drama than Volkswagen. And by the way, over the last few years, I’ve counted, the supervisory board always meets on Fridays. And tons of decisions were made on Fridays and announced on Fridays. So, yeah, so that's my rough take.

Tu Le:
So in addition to what I had kind of written in the newsletter, I’m actually pretty concerned for Volkswagen Group, because if everybody is an agreement that he needed to go, I’m not sure they're ready for major changes. And so you had talked about all these changes had already happened. I agree with that 100%. And I had gotten a little push back from a tweet I had that said that I think it implied that I wasn't giving Diess credit and let me say he should get credit, he's being scapegoated, but at the end of the day, he wasn't able to make these huge changes, right? And as an CEO, you don't really have the benefit of excuses. You just got to get it done, and he didn't get it done, right? The most important thing for me with Volkswagen Group and with all of these legacies is they just need to move faster, right? That they're going to make mistakes. We get that. But if their decision making is very slow and methodical, like in the past, this is where they're going to lose, they're not going to be able to keep up with the Teslas and the China EV Inc. So does Oliver Blume have the right environment to be successful? I don't know anything about this guy. But Porsche I believe, sells less than 400,000 vehicles annually globally. So to go from managing 400,000 vehicles at the premium segment, and then pushing out to 8 million cars or 7 million cars a year across eight different brands, nine different brands, that's a completely different monster, right?

Lei Xing:
Not only that and also because there's bit of a conflict of interest because you run a group and you run the most profitable, one of the most profitable automotive brands, right? Their latest numbers, almost 20% ROI. That's unheard of.

Tu Le:
I love Porsche, by the way, I think…

Lei Xing:
Yeah, same here.

Tu Le:
Their products are amazing, so.

Lei Xing:
So one of the articles I've seen, I think it was FT or some other, was exactly on this concern from investors having a group CEO that's also running one of its brands, right? I think that was a concern that could affect the valuation of the IPO, and also chatter on his position on the e-fuels and rumor that, right…

Tu Le:
He was somehow colluding, right?

Lei Xing:
Right, lobbied with the government. But that's not confirmed, but still, the trajectory that the Porsche has, this has been announced many times: 80% EVs by what, 2030, right? So I think strategically for Volkswagen Group, the namesake brand, and all the brands, that EVs, there's no going back, right? There's no turning back. And it's about execution and it's about, I guess it’s not only about the EVs, but really about the software. 

Tu Le:
That’s it! That’s it!

Lei Xing:
Because EVs nowadays are all about software. That was part of the reason that even the lady from the works council believe that it was slow, right, affecting the Audi and Porsche model rollouts, right? The Macan, and some others. But I think there's a multitude of things, culture, software, execution, being too maverick. I think Diess, next to Elon Musk, is one of the most outspoken…

Tu Le:
Polarizing.

Lei Xing:
And social media wise, right? Who posts stuff on Twitter and LinkedIn that sometimes pokes fun, and being a frenemy, or a friend of Elon Musk, right? Who does that? There's no other global CEO that does that. That kind of…

Tu Le:
But he gets it! That's because he gets it, because social media needs to be part of every CEO’s or major CEO’s kind of toolbox, right? 

Lei Xing:
To the three clans, we mentioned that's probably a bit too much, right? So all of these things, I think, kind of led to Blume who is much more, I guess, 

Tu Le:
Understated.

Lei Xing:
Yeah. Lowkey, balanced, technical, by the way, he is now the only CEO of a global leading automaker group that has a degree from China's Tongji University, a Doctorate degree. So there’s a bit of information.

Tu Le:
The one thing I will say is that disruption, because I think you and I agree that there are some structural and foundational issues and challenges with Volkswagen Group. And the only way you're going to make major changes to structure is disrupting, making people uncomfortable. So the whole point of Diess poking and prodding is to really get people and the organizations to change. I don't know how Blume is going to do that without pissing a bunch of people off, right? Eventually. But if he does that, he's probably doing his job. So there's this irony that you and I agree that Diess was making changes. He was, he failed at the software thing. And I just feel he underestimated the challenge that posed.

Lei Xing:
But I also wanted to say on a personal side of it, as not as a CEO, maybe as an CEO, but also as a person to person interaction wise, I've had the privilege of speaking, either directly or indirectly, or being in the presence of both Diess and Wollenstein many times in the past few years before the pandemic in China and elsewhere in the world when they've had events that I attended. And both of these guys, to me, they're very approachable, they're very open, they're very fair. They're patient with you like after events, Wollenstein will be there talking to the media either planned or unplanned and he is very patient. So there's no, I mean, for that, I feel like it's a kind of what's the word I’m trying to look for. a little regret that they're gone. But I think there are two of the most, one, vocal and two, open, on what and how they understand, like they understand the issues, they understand the problems, and they openly talk about it. But I guess at the end of the day, it's time for them to move on. So the word is pity. It's a pity that they couldn't continue further, but I guess like what Sebastian Vettel said in his retirement message, he said we wanted to, I wanted to go with the times, right, and not look to the past. I think that's the same for Volkswagen.

Tu Le:
They have some rough waters ahead of them if they're going to make these necessary structural changes that Diess had kind of initially put in place. So because the people need to get fired for any more software snafus, right, like team wise and organization wise. Because they can't delay that any further, right?

Lei Xing:
Yeah, so going forward, I think the questions that'll come up is, one, what's going to happen to CARIAD? What's going to happen to China? And once Diess is gone, what is that narrative of Volkswagens surpassing Tesla by 2025? Are we going to hear any more of that or no? So lots of questions, and specifically on China, they're leaving at a point where China is really, their sales are, I mean, June seem to be better, but over the past few years they've been down. ICEs, or EVs are okay…

Tu Le:
Significantly down. 

Lei Xing:
Significantly down, and we just heard Carlos Tavares say today, the reason why they, Jeep couldn't continue (in China) was because of some political influence. I think it's plausible. It's part of the reason, but I don't believe it's the majority. I don't believe it's the main reason for Jeep making that decision.

Tu Le:
Tavares is scapegoating a little bit, right?

Lei Xing:
Yeah, and it's the products, it's competition. I think there is a bit of nationalism. I don't doubt that, but right? 

Tu Le:
And this is why Tesla needs to watch its back, because we see the challenges of Volkswagen have when relying on China as such a huge part of their profits, right?

Lei Xing:
Yeah. And now I think Ralph Brandstatter is taking over what, next Monday or Tuesday officially, August 1, taking over China operations that’s a hot potato, right? I wouldn't want to be in his position. Wollenstein is kind of leaving, I don't know, I don't want to say it's on a high, but they just unveiled this V.MO.

Tu Le:
He looks like so relieved in these pictures, right?

Lei Xing:
Yeah but V.MO is a classic example, I guess they're trying to portray it as that Volkswagen Group employees, I think it was a team of five or six people that did this project, and three of them were females, within too many months, I don't know. But Ralph is kind of an outsider to China, though, he is a Volkswagen executive, but Wollenstein is somebody who's been in China for years. And now you have an expat, new expat.

Tu Le:
Such a head scratcher.

Lei Xing:
Yeah. I don’t know.

Tu Le:
I don't doubt any of these people's capabilities, but is it the right decision to send an outsider who's not spend a, because this is where I really normally don't mind bringing outsiders in. But in this case, the Chinese market is so dynamic. It moves so fast that unless you're here feeling it, dealing with it, working with it, it's really hard to kind of look at it externally and appreciate the complexity and the speed at which things happen here.

Lei Xing:
It's basically, I think for Volkswagen Group, it's been a global makeover in a matter of weeks and months, right? North America. They have this new change, this new Scout brand, I don't know what's going to happen there, all announced before Diess right? The changeover in China, Diess is gone, new structures. Now you have the CFO as a additional role as a COO and Blume having this right, Group CEO role plus a Porsche CEO role, I probably would expect additional announcements, executive announcements.

Tu Le:
I think that here in China, they're trying to find a seat. It's like that what's that called a, musical chairs, where chairs are getting moved out. And I don't know how if Diess and Blume were actual allies within the company, right? If they're not, then Blume’s going to want his own guys in these roles, right? So is Brandstatter one of Blume’s guys, I don't know. So maybe some of these people really understand that they're walking on thin ice.

Lei Xing:
Yeah and the other interesting thing is, we've seen all the major automakers report second quarter earnings. And again, the numbers really good, right? Even for Volkswagen, right? You saw the numbers out today, right? And these Diess didn’t even make a comment in that press release, it was the CFO, but still, but here's a line from I copied from the press release: “the Group continued to prioritize investment in future BEV technology and software. R&D expenditure increased to 4.9 billion Euros in Q2, accelerating Volkswagen’s progress towards becoming a software driven mobility provider.” Right there, that's what these wanted to do. That was the strategic direction.

Tu Le:
I think Ralph has probably the second and hardest job at Volkswagen Group behind Blume.

Lei Xing:
Oh definitely, I agree. 

Tu Le:
But so let's end the news early. I have a brief list of updates really quickly. NIO is going to be building a phone, one a year. I got a quick DM this morning, from a mole of mine in Australia, BYD is hiring like crazy, they finally gotten their import approval

Lei Xing:
Done, yep.

Tu Le:
And they will be delivering vehicles within the next 60 days to customers in Australia it looks like.

Lei Xing:
I think that was the plan anyways, right? It was to start in August.

Tu Le:
I think it got delayed a little bit. Yeah. So Australia also approved some EV credits. 

Lei Xing:
New Zealand, right?

Tu Le:
Yep. I think BYD is going to have another opportunity to grow sales outside of China, because right now currently Australia, the leading seller of EVs in Australia is Tesla, so.

Lei Xing:
Here's a point I want to make, is the recent debate on BYD dethroning Tesla in global EV sales, right, with an asterisk. Tesla is global right now, but BYD is about to become a lot more global within the next 12 months.

Tu Le:
This is where BYD needs to really be careful about their product portfolio and which cars they export to what markets. They need to really study what's going to resonate. They can't just send 10 part numbers to each country or each region. I think they really need to focus on one or two products, right?

Lei Xing:
We had seen the announcement that they will be exhibiting at the Paris Motor Show in October.

Tu Le:
This is their coming out party.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, they will have a range of EVs for the European market and come CES next January, they'll be making another huge announcement. I'm sure of that. So.

Tu Le:
And as an indication of the quality levels, and Mark will talk to this as well. Overall, and 10 years ago, I would have been concerned if China EV Inc. or ICE Inc. tried to export to the U.S. or Europe, because quality reliability wasn't there 10 years ago? It is now. Every car that we got into the last week and a half, you would see the equivalent kind of quality issues as you would in a European, a Renault or a Buick. So if they're counting on quality and reliability not being there, I think foreign automakers in their home markets are going to become very concerned. So. The last thing I wanted to, so two more things: Lenovo is starting to build software now for EVs and AVs, which is, now everybody's in the pool, Lei, I can't think of any other technology, Chinese technology company that's not in the game, right?

Lei Xing:
The BATHL. 

Tu Le:
Yeah I know. Finally, Xpeng, there was some concern about Xpeng lowering price on their vehicles.

Lei Xing:
I just thought that the irony of that news or chatter is it goes against the way that it's happening that you can get this a discounts at the offline stores. It goes against the business model in the first place, because that's the old traditional legacy style of doing business. But in the smart EV age, you don't, right, it shouldn't happen. So it's going backward. So I don't know what's going on for Xpeng, but.

Tu Le:
That G9 needs to hit.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, especially, well you will talk about L9. But yeah, exactly.

Tu Le:
The one thing that I will specify between an Xpeng direct consumer retail experience versus a NIO is that NIO, I believe, and you correct me if I'm wrong, owns all of their retail locations. They run it themselves, where Xpeng I believe also has partners that sell.

Lei Xing:
They have two different, I guess, arrangements. Some of them they own and some they have partners.

Tu Le:
So maintaining brand positioning and because these dealer partners, they own these cars from Xpeng. So if they're on, if they are on the books for a long time, these dealers, what they want to do is they want to discount them to get them out of the car off the balance sheet. So there's always going to be pressure when there's this divergent strategy for sales. I don't know if that's kind of sort of what's happening, but Xpeng, it's unfortunate because they have three cars that are, and we say this, but like over a year old in the market and that's just too old, I think, right?

Lei Xing:
Yeah. Like we said a few episodes ago, the word I use is “relentless.” It just continues. It's on and on. You can't stop, right? That's the dynamic, and that's why some of the legacies are falling behind.

Tu Le:
I've pulled Mark up and I’ve give him speaking capabilities. So, hey Mark, what's going on? Good catching up and seeing you this week.

Mark Rainford:
It's a been a crazy few weeks, right?

Tu Le:
Yeah, so can you introduce yourself to everybody and kind of talk about what you're doing in Beijing?

Mark Rainford:
Yeah, sure. So I'm only in Beijing 2 weeks. I'm actually normally based in Xi’an. I'm essentially, I have a Youtube channel, so I'm making video reviews of Chinese vehicles, not just cars, but also we're going to talk about things like motorbikes and even trucks as well and autonomous cars as well. I also do communications consultanting, so my background is all in communications, in addition to communications, consulting for some of the Chinese startups who are currently spreading out into Europe. 

Tu Le:
And you are a Mercedes reject too, right for 8 years, right?

Mark Rainford:
No, my Mercedes are a lot rapid reject. No, I worked for 8 years, so I was there in the UK, Germany and in China. I was in Beijing for 3.5 years. I've been around the automotive space, I have a master’s degree in automotive journalism. So I’m trying to put that to good use, basically.

Lei Xing:
And it's a great time to do it.

Mark Rainford:
Great time to be doing it. I mean things have changed, as you mentioned before, things changed so much in 10 years in the Chinese EV space, the development is incredible, it's kind of hard to comprehend unless you are here witnessing it, but obviously starting to reach out to Europe now.

Lei Xing:
I say the changes are measured by weeks and days, not by years.

Mark Rainford:
That’s true, yeah.

Tu Le:
So, Mark, what was the first car that you had? How you go about getting these things and stuff?

Mark Rainford:
Sure. So the first car I had this week, last week actually, was the Polestar 2 so have contacted Geely and asked Ash from twitter, he’s one of the Geely communications people, it's a lot easier to get press cars in the biggest cities like Beijing than Xi’an, so I asked him while I'm here is to get a hold of. Very support of me with the Polestar 2 and also the ZEEKR 001. So two days with the Polestar 2, on Wednesday and Thursday of last week. Obviously it's not technically a Chinese brand per se but it is made here actually Geely being the parent company, well not the parent company but highly involved. But the Polestar was amazing. For me in terms of all the EVs I’ve driven, there is no other car that is as engaging as the Polestar 2 to drive. It's the full hands on experience, all the throttle feel, the brake feel, steering feel is light years ahead of anything else that we have here. I have discussed with Tu, not that the Chinese automotive market doesn't really want a car that is hands on with the Polestar 2, because when you have driven it for a day, you know you’ve driven it for a day. Whereas most Chinese cars have, like the steering, much more comfortable, right? I would say. So it was amazing for someone like me, someone from Europe who looks to have a car and wants it to feel like part of the experience, but maybe it's less built for the Chinese market, but it looks amazing.

Tu Le:
Let me ask both of you this question. So you've tested the Polestar 2, Li Auto L9, ZEEKR 001, Xpeng P7. If you were, you're living in China, let's say you put your consumer hat on. If you were in the market for a car, which one of those will be on top of the list. And the other question is, how would you rank these cars as industry experts? As testers, as KOLs?

Tu Le:
I would say hands down the L9 was, I was really impressed. Unfortunately, our contact at Li Auto, who's amazing, Tim, thanks, if you're listening. I think because of that whole spring issue last week, “springgate,” we weren't allowed to have the car by ourselves for the whole day. We went to Li Auto and had a big meeting in the conference room and he kind of went over the slides with us and learned a lot that way. But then we walked outside of the facility and there's a green L9. And exterior wise, it's a bit generic, but it's not ugly, it's a good-looking car, but it's not like super distinctive in my opinion, but then we get in the car. And I’m like fit and finish of the materials was really well done. And the screens were super cool. The lack of an instrument panel didn't look out of place, right? We drove it around and there's an area in Shunyi where they test like autonomous vehicles, and so they had these like cardboard boxes that look like cars and there is this Meituan delivery robot that was test riding up and down. Yeah. There's a guy on a scooter, a Meituan employee on a scooter, just following it, right? So we parked here and there's no other cars. And then Tim just like gave us a rundown of all of the cool features. And I sat in the back, I sat in the front, that head up display, I thought it was going to be a little bit weird. The head up display, it's like 13 inches wide. And it looks great, it was super clear. And the software capabilities didn't, it wasn't buggy, the 8155 is supsuper-fast, Sapdragon, the Qualcomm but…

Lei Xing:
Wait till the JIDU.

Tu Le:
Yeah, I was, yeah exactly. But and then we drove it and it's a big car, it's a heavy car. But it drove. So we had the Li ONE for a while, for like a week. They made a lot of improvement over the Li ONE. And the balance of the vehicle was great, because we got to drive it around with Tim in the car. So he couldn't trash it too much. But I was like, wow, and I misquoted the pricing last week. I think I said 400, I think it's 459, so it's close to 70 grand. So it's not the cheapest thing in the world, but man, dude, it is going to take a ton of sales from BMW, from Mercedes. You're going to see a lot of people deciding between the ES7, at least in China, the ES7, the L9 in the next 18 months, probably. So Mark, what are your thoughts?

Mark Rainford:
Yeah, so it depends on your customer base, but I agree with you. I was knodding along with what you said about the L9. It was so impressive from the get go, I think Tim said to us that it comes in a less than a GLC300. It's the size of a GLS and actually with more space inside. For me, it was three genuinely sized rows. I've never sat in a car that has a third row that you can actually come in and everything works. It was so impressive the gesture control, even at this early stage, worked totally fine, the screens were super slick.

Tu Le:
Even with your terrible mandarin, it understood yourself.

Mark Rainford:
That’s it. Most seem to have a problem even from the very beginning, just getting them to understand the first thing that you say, but it works everything. No, I was genuinely impressed by it, it would have been nice to take it for a drive and check out the air suspension and things. But interior wise it was a brilliant car. It looked really cool, looked like a grown up version of the Li ONE.

Tu Le:
That burnt orange was actually nice color. I like that color very nice.

Mark Rainford:
Very nice. But like you said it will take so many sales from lots of the German brands and to be honest, I'd be surprised if the ES7 can keep up with it because I doubt the ES7 has all the family oriented features. That was a thing that Tim said to us very clearly. We are a family company, we don't build sport cars, we are a family oriented company, but they know exactly who they are targeting, they know exactly with the ONE because they got feedback from Autohome, a giant car forum that is founded by the owner of Li Auto. They’ve taken all that feedback, they made it absolutely brilliant and genuinely really impressive. It will probably easily double their sales getting to 20,000 if not more.

Tu Le:
And Tim said family about 100 times. Everything was family, family.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, that's their positioning.

Tu Le:
He also said that Li Xiang is a tall guy. He's probably 6’1” or 6’2”, maybe like your size Lei.

Lei Xing:
He's not that tall. I’m 6’2”. I look down on him. But he’s not short.

Tu Le:
Anyways, Tim's not super tall, but anyways, he said that Li Xiang was kind of the person that they measured the backseat on. So that's why they have like a full size, third row for big people to sit. And so, yeah, man.

Lei Xing:
Bit of history, Li Xiang (Li Auto) before, prior was known as Chehejia, which meant “car and home” that was their name when they started a company. So you can get why it's all about family. Tell us what were some of the problems or issues you encountered with any of these cars.

Tu Le:
So I will say that we tried out the ZEEKR, and we picked up your friend, we picked up our friend Nori Shirouzou? If you guys don't know who Nori is, just Google him, he writes for Reuters. He's a legendary automotive journalist, like legendary. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a driver's license in China. So we just picked him up, because I thought he would like to see the ZEEKR, and he did, and we're driving it. And this thing is a monster. It like zero to sixty in like 3.5 seconds. It is a monster, it is 2 meters wide. But we did need that 8155 upgrade because that infotainment and the mapping was pretty buggy. I'll have Mark talk to it a little bit, but the car’s great. It's in my opinion, it's a great first try. There's a lot to build on, but like the Li ONE to the L9, hopefully we see a bit more refinement in version two of the 001. I think it's a great tourer. It's a super roomie, the interior is, it has some little, because it's RMB400,000 I believe. And so it, people stare at it when we drive by for sure. But there are some improvements that could be made. And the funny thing is Lei, so Nori is in the front seat, I’m in the backseat, I just wanted to check it out and then he get, he's like, we should call Ash, and so he picks up his iPhone. And so he face timed, or tries to face time Ash, while we're driving, Ash didn't pick up, but thought that was pretty funny. So, Mark, did you want to add anything?

Mark Rainford:
Yeah, so like you said the system was the main issue, wasn't it? For example, one time we left the car park, we put the sat nav on and the sat nav was given the correct instructions on the head up display, which is pretty big, about 14 inches was really really good, but, the map is still showing that we were still in the car park, even though we traveled from way outside of Beijing back into the center. The clock was wrong by about 6 hours. The system definitely had some issues, but I do know that they rolled out, I think version 3 software this week, which apparently solved the issue, and the rollout of the 8155 as well. So I think they're fairly confident that will stop the issues. With the car, I really enjoyed it. Like Tu said, it looked amazing, looks great in any location. For me, you kind of have two personalities because I was thinking of it first as a sports car, I was kind of hoping it to be something a bit like the Polestar but bigger. It certainly doesn't have any of sort of the steering feel, throttle feel as the Polestar. But it does have the speed, has an incredible pick up even for a big vehicle, a really really strong handling so, I took it to the twisty road outside of Beijing. It didn't struggle at all. It was like a Quattro stability. But then I realized actually, if you turn all the things down to comfort, it makes a great GT, it would make a great cross continental cruiser obviously not the same mileage as these standard cruisers, but it was a big car, loads of space, very comfortable, all the features that you would want for a GT cruiser. And maybe that's the way they should look at marketing it. It’s cool when you need it. But actually it's just, it's better for the long distances.

Tu Le:
I thought I was pretty comfortable in the car. I think the seats were pretty supportive, and the ride was pretty firm, but not like bone jarring firm.

Lei Xing:
When you guys drove the L9, did you notice any difference? It being an EREV versus the other BEVs? Was there any noticeable difference in a way, like, did you feel anything or did it feel like a BEV?

Tu Le:
I'd say that, this might be how it's tuned, so don't quote me on this, but it just wasn't as quick as some of the other cars that we drove last week or this week.

Lei Xing:
It is a big car with an engine, with batteries. 

Tu Le:
But then again, we had maybe 15 minutes each behind the wheel. So it wasn't like a thorough assessment, but we're basically driving it around one street, right? And but again, it was abandoned so we got to mash on the accelerator, it’s pretty quick. But I can't. But Mark has been in EVs last 2 weeks straight, so maybe he can give more color on that.

Mark Rainford:
Yeah, I think they had the engine turned on permanently, but you didn't notice it. It didn't, it wasn’t loud, didn’t feel intrusive, didn't feel any lack of refine than a normal EV. As you said before, they are a family oriented company, they don't even give out zero to 100 km/h time for the L9, specifically because they're not interested in cars that are going to be lightning qiuck off the line. It’s what you’ll get with the Polestar and ZEEKR, even the Xpeng can do it a in a pretty quick time, but Li L9 is not chasing those numbers, it’s not there target audience is about. But L9 is super refined, even for a pre-production model.

Tu Le:
We identified maybe a handful of issues for the pre-production model that we told Tim about just kind of walking around looking at things. But if they can make 10, 15,000, 20,000 of those a month, like how they made this pre-production model, the quality reliability is going to be fine. What one thing I will also say is the Li ONE, when you're driving it, has a bit of a whine, like a small whine that's gone in the L9, because I’d asked him about it and he told me that they knew about that with the Li ONE, and they kind of remedied it with the L9. So let's move on to the, let’s move on to Evoke. I've driven the Polestar and I'd kind of been to Evoke. But Mark, what were your thoughts on the Urban Classic?

Mark Rainford:
I thought it was quite good. I think if you're looking for something that is kind of is refined and put together and what you would find on Hondas, they're not quite there yet, they’ll start to work on that. But in terms of, for the performance, it was pretty strong. I was kind of worried that it was going to be lightning quick to be honest, like really, really quick, like throw yourself and I know that real quick, I thought it was more progressive than that.

Tu Le:
So let me give a little bit of background, I should have given, Evoke Motorcycles is an electric motorcycle and we're not talking mopeds, we're talking proper Ducati monster style motorcycle, and they're based, they have a factory that they partnered with Foxconn in South Beijing and it's funny because it was started by a Canadian guy and a German polish guy. Super great dudes that I want to see succeed. And they invited us down, checked out the factory, some of their prototypes, how they make batteries, and how they test the batteries, and then gave us the keys to a couple of Urban Classics. And we drove around Yizhuang. And it was a ton of fun. I was a little nervous because I hadn't ridden a motorcycle in years. Like Mark said, it wasn't lightning quick Mark, you even tried to pop a couple of wheelies, right? And couldn't do it.

Mark Rainford:
I did try, basically started going full throttle from standstill and there was no risk of it locking up on the front wheels, Sebastian suggested that the 2022 model might be a little bit quicker that might be closer to getting it to work. I think the battery pack is what, 70 kilograms, I think he said, yeah, he said it's on the heavy side for a 250. But all the weight is kept quite low down. The battery stack is right down there at the front. So the chances of getting a wheelie is not too high, I don't think, it was never a risk of it. As I said it was really progressive, you could control it, no problem. Once you kind of got the wiggle into your hips, let's say, the handle was quite decent as well. Just felt heavy to begin with, as will the 6061 when that comes out, which is more a kind of smaller bike with longer distances. But I mean, you can ride it daily to work and you can get to the office in 20 minutes or something.

Tu Le:
Yeah, splitting lanes.

Mark Rainford:
So it's an ideal vehicle, I think for being in the city, you can come home late at night, not wake up your neighbors with the noise of the exahaust. And that's what they're looking for a bike that people can use every day. I think the Urban does that pretty well.

Tu Le:
It should be noted that they, if you've ridden a petrol motorcycle and changing gears and all that stuff, it's completely different feel. It's super quick. It's quick enough and they could make it quicker. They decided not to, I think they're going to explore some different features with some of their other products, but, they are currently shipping to Australia, to the U.S, to parts of Europe. I'm not sure which countries in Europe to be honest with you. So. Go ahead Lei.

Lei Xing:
No, I was just going to ask you what, did their assessment and you guys assessment of the business case? You just talk about, like there's no, I’m not aware of any other company like Evoke in China, correct?

Tu Le:
Yeah. There's one or two that Mark had reached out to, right? Like Da Vinci, right? Mark.

Mark Rainford:
There's a couple of them. There is one called the called CSC or CCS I think they're also selling bikes abroad, at least in the U.S. but I don’t know how much bigger they are. And then there is Da Vinci, they've got a pretty exactly looking bike: PC100, apparently has the ability to balance by itself as well. Do not need a standard and you can make it follow you as you're walking. They said they don't have any bikes ready for that yet. So whether that one will come to fruition or not is really the question? We’ll have to see.

Lei Xing:
 So it's mainly for export, is that correct? Because I don't see there's a market in China.

Tu Le:
They don't sell it I don't think in China.

Lei Xing:
Right, because regulatory wise or market wise, it is so niche.

Tu Le:
It's about $9,800 for the Urban Classic. And, they're just getting started. They're raising capital right now. So if anybody is interested in learning more about Evoke…

Lei Xing:
Because they've been around for quite a few years now.

Tu Le:
Yeah, you'd met Nathan before you said, right?

Lei Xing:
Like in 14 or 15ish. I think that's when I met him.

Tu Le:
So they're pretty passionate about what they do, and they're just grinding it out right now. I think there's a huge opportunity for electric motorcycles in the next 3, 4 or 5 years. So hopefully they raise enough capital to pave that runway. So the next car we should move on to is the Xpeng P7. And I had…

Lei Xing:
Does it feel old now?

Tu Le:
That's the thing, right? So I had visted Xpeng, right, in 2020, right before CVOID. There were some P7 mules there that I got into, and it has really improved from the first iteration to now where the dashboard and the front console actually looks pretty good. It doesn't look like you bolted on an iPad onto an instrument panel, right? So I've driven them before. So I'll let mark kind of give his assessment because you have to remember that it's aa budget, not a budget, but more of a mass market, aggressively priced midsize sedan, right? So when comparing to some of these other cars that are a bit more premium, then it's not going to stand up to that, right? So go ahead, Mark.

Mark Rainford:
Yeah, so that was definitely the first thing, the material quality, there is a few plastics in there on the dashboard. I wasn't expecting, be honest, because most people talk about Xpeng in the same breath as me, but they are not the same price wise and not the same quality wise in the interior. In terms of the car, for what you are getting, you get quite a decent car. It was really well, I put in a few twisties, to see what was like. It was really well planted again, progressive acceleration and things like that.

Tu Le:
Mark, even though it's the price lower than a NIO, they could still do, keep the price the same and the range, but they could still do better with some of the materials, right? Some of that plastic stuff they could do better. 

Mark Rainford:
Definitely. Yeah, that for me was probably the biggest disappointment. Other than that it works out everywhere in every way. So the Xpeng do a lot of their own software, the software experience is really quick. It was clear, they have a lot of features like the XPilot and things like that. I wanted to try the XPilot, but unfortunately my Chinese isn't good enough because in order to activate it, you need to watch a video and then do a little test.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, there's a test involved.

Tu Le:
Li Auto is doing that too. Li Auto is doing that too now.

Mark Rainford:
Yeah, that’s something worth doing because Li Auto is keen, Li Auto also won't use the word autonomous and they will not give you a level for the autonomous. Because they basically seeing videos and some drivers with some shields in the window, laid back on the front seat, but that's not what they want. So it's kind of part of the education piece and Xpeng did the same thing in terms of their videos. But as a car, it was quick enough, the one that we had was a rear wheel drive car, about 267 hp or something like that, which is more than enough.

Tu Le:
That's a lot. 

Mark Rainford:
There was plenty plenty quick, not too heavy. One of the things I noticed about it was it definitely feels a lot smaller, so it feels easy to place on country roads and also in the city when the ZEEKR was actually a beast, that was huge. For the Xpeng is much easy to place on the road. It looks great obviously, no, there's a couple of quirk. It was quite loud on the motorway as well, so that there was quite a bit of drum in the motors when you got above 55 km/h, it does a kind of the humming noise that doesn't have any double glazing in the front or the rear, not like things on the AITO M5. I think the ZEEKR might also have double glazing, yeah, it was just a bit rough around the edges. I think it's probably something that they're working on, obviously, because if you look at how companies like NETA have improved from their first car the V, up to the U, that was a massive step. And the S is going to come out. And that looks like it's going to be a step up again. I think Xpeng is also trying to move in that direction, just generally improved material quality and build quality, things like that. 

Tu Le:
And that's the one thing that was plainly obvious when comparing the Polestar, the ZEEKR and the L9, there's just not enough sound deadener in the P7 when compared to those cars. And so, we didn't have to yell when we were talking, but we had to speak loudly, let's just say that. So there could be some and I’m saying the glass is probably a little bit thinner, a lack of sound deadener in the doors and parts of the frame that made the road noise a little bit, and maybe even the tires, right? Maybe there's a cheaper set of tires that kind of made road. And it's not unacceptable. Let me be clear, the road noise. But it was like noticeably louder than I remember the L9 being right. 

So the last thing that this was kind of a cool thing, actually, a two thing. So for the Polestar, we brought in Anders (Hove), right? And so there's going to be a video of the charging stuff that we talked about last time. And then the last thing that we did yesterday was head into Yizhuang again and visit the Baidu Apollo depot. Unfortunately, it rained like crazy on Wednesday. And I think that was the reason, the city, the local xiaoqu said that there couldn't be any robotaxi rides on Thursday. So we were scheduled to go and ride in some robotaxis from Apollo, but all we got to do, which was still cool as hell, was check out the RT6, the recently unveiled L4 robotaxi that Baidu will be manufacturing in 2023 and rolling out as part of their fleet of robotaxis, no steering wheel, three seats. And the refinement of this prototype was great. We did not get to sit in it. We spent probably 20 minutes taking pictures, taking videos, asking a lot of questions, 38 sensors, 8 LiDAR, 12 cameras or something like that. And so this thing, the inside and the seat were kind of awkward, but the car looks great.

Lei Xing:
Size wise, it's what, a L9? Or was it a little bit smaller than the L9?

Tu Le:
Chabuduo (almost). But it's super roomy, like spacious right, especially because there's only three seats. And but like, I think for RMB250,000, man, they've kind of set the bar. We thought DeepRoute had set the bar, right? But actually, 250, so $37,000 effectively, you can get a Level 4-capable robotaxi from Baidu. They're going to be launching a lot of them come 2023.

Lei Xing:
Hey, Mark, curious where you are because of the background music, are you at a coffee place, a bar or?

Mark Rainford: 
Apologies. I'm at Universal Studios and my friend. I have the day off from driving cars.

Lei Xing:
Thank you for doing this, interesting!

Tu Le:
Tell those minions to shut up, dude.

Mark Rainford:
I try to find a quiet space, but the speakers are everywhere.

Lei Xing:
Because Tu aid about the minions, I didn't get you like what, minions?. And now I understand.

Tu Le:
So overall, I'd mentioned this in the newsletter. I think if you were here Lei, you get invited quite often, too. But I took for granted these invitations. We shouldn't, right?

Lei Xing:
So I've never gotten the chance before the pandemic. While I was there, I’ve had plenty of chance to check out these cars, obviously. I've never had the chance to kind of drive them. I think the only one I've driven was the G3 in 2019 down in Guangzhou.

Tu Le:
And you'd be amazed of the refinement from the G3 till now on every EV I think.

Lei Xing:
And for an extended period of time, the only other EV driven was the Model 3 here in the U.S. for a week. But right, it's probably totally different than many of these that you guys have tried.

Tu Le:
I'm looking forward to getting with Frank, going to his design studio, signing that NDA not being able to talk about it, but checking that stuff out and then ride driving the ROBO-01, because that's probably going to be in the next 12 or 18 months, the biggest, it's probably going to push the envelope the most when it comes to the software, the UX and the UI because you and I have become pretty good friends with Frank. And so he shares these little tidbits that are very helpful to us. But let's open up the room. If anyone has any questions, Abe, I know you raised your hand, so we didn't mean to ignore you, buddy. I know you're probably have some comments about what we said about Volkswagen. So if you're listening, you still have a comment, feel free to raise your hand. And then, Mark, I should add that Inside China Auto and SinoAuto Insights will have some videos that will be posting on Youtube that I think will be cool to watch. And I want to emphasize how we, as in me, you and Mark, we look at cars a little bit differently than I think just these regular KOLs, right? Because we're in the industry and so we know I think what to look for when it comes to quality reliability, sounds that cars make or shouldn't make. And so I think having that perspective is going to be different than some of these other videos where it's just KOLs talking about how great everything is on every car that they review. We try to be very objective, right?

Lei Xing:
So I guess the conclusion is that these are all well done. Nice features, well ahead of the foreign legacies in some of the features, but there's improvement to be made, right? I think that's the…

Tu Le:
And you can bet that there will be improvement because in just 2 or 3 years, that we originally saw the first editions of all these either early products to new products. The leaps that they've taken have just been amazing. So they're learning, and they're getting customer feedback and they're incorporating it into their new products. And software.

Lei Xing:
The way they do this is posting on Weibo and adding the other executive, say, hey you guys, you got to look into this and get to it. I'm talking about the Xpeng DMS with the small eyes that was, went viral on social media.

Tu Le:
As an Asian person, I don't know, I kind of laugh, but I’m like, dude, whatever man, like, I don't know how to feel about that because I have the double eyelids, so I don't have that issue, but Abe, before we let you jump on. Mark, did you have any final comments on overall not just one particular vehicle, but kind of your thoughts of the last 2 weeks?

Mark Rainford:
It's been useful for me because it's obviously bit hard to get cars in Xi’an than in Beijing. To actually see the different identities are coming out of the cars in China. I mean you look at how far the market has come in the last 10 years. It's kind of insane really the quality of cars that they're able to produce now. They were all really well stuck together and handling wise they were good. Obviously the Polestar is a bit different, but it's a bit more Europe oriented. So it drives, in my opinion, far superior to the other ones. But another thing I would quickly about the Xpeng as well, which I remember afterwards. We were trying the adaptive cruise control on it. And it was quite delayed. So what happened is you set on adoptive cruise control. The car pulls in front of you, the car would slam on the brakes in order to try and rebuild that gap as quickly as possible against the vehicle in front, which was a bit of a challenge because it affects all the people around you. Then when that car eventually moves up and away again, it's really, really slow to get back to the top speed. So it's not really a smooth enough process to me yet. And obviously I know how they're the comparison of all the systems. And they noted that the Xpeng was kind of more cautious from the others, I think sort of through control and autonomous features a smoother process for everybody, that's going to be where the challenges are going to come. But at the minute, human interaction is probably what's holding most things are of all the computers hold it together would probably be fine for the moment. They're still also the majority of people are driving cars themselves. The adaptation to that is a challenge for the machine, let's say.

Lei Xing:
And notice that we've never talked even once about range, this was our conversation with John Voelcker the other day, right? That it's history now that they no longer buy based on range, they buy based on how fast the HMI is, how good your, these tech features are.

Tu Le:
And there's just enough diverse products in the market here that you can pretty much find the exact product that you want, you don't have to compromise too many things. I think that's the main difference between the European and U.S. markets. There's still just a handful of quality EVs out there in those markets. And the other thing, too, is that we talk about a handful of brands here, but there are a lot of choices from AION, from NETA, from all these other companies that are actually pretty viable too. So I’m telling you I’ve gotten into dozens of cars, American cars, European cars, SUVs, right? Like this L9. It would sell crazy in the U.S. I don't care what type of engine it is, EREV, a BEV, this thing was like, and the key is that the software and the entertainment system wasn't intimidating. Because when you press on a lot of the entertainment systems, in these new cars, you're like you got to go three or four levels deep before you figure out how to. And Voelcker said this, John Voelcker said this. Shameless plug, he's going to be our next MAX episode guest. He was like, changing the vents on the air conditioner. We had to go three levels down. Man, this Li Auto thing. And remember this is in Chinese. And so Mark and I are not Lei, right? We can’t read Chinese super well. So just being able to see the symbols and kind of like logically think through, ok, let's press this button. And so that's where it's if GM, Ford, Volkswagen can kind of get that, and that has nothing to do with being nationalistic or a domestic versus a foreign brand. It's just making great design vehicles that have quality and reliability, right?

Lei Xing:
I think the internal and the external factors nowadays are a bit, play a much more role or influence on the market. I do believe that, whether it's the nationalistic view, whether it is these young Gen-Zs, whether it’s competition? Everything at play, I think, and this change over to the EVs that somehow the Chinese brands moved just a few steps faster and for the foreign companies to catch up, it's been a headache. So what I’m expecting Volkswagen in China, in particular, to do, is first make some sacrifices, make some tough decisions. One example would be Skoda. I think when I talked to Wollenstein, he kind of alluded to it. He said in our MAX episode that they were making a decision, they planned to make a decision on that. And I could think that it would be something like a Jeep that, no longer, what they're going to do on the electrification side. What they're going to do on localization side. At the end of the day, probably Volkswagen and Audi, including JETTA, are going to be the dominant, localized of brands, plus Porsche and the other brands that are imported. So they have to make one of those decisions.

Tu Le:
And, you're absolutely right. And that's where earlier in our conversation, I said they just need to move faster, right? Because it's not a 5-year product life cycle anymore. 

Lei Xing:
I also think that Ralph is also looking much more ahead, few years down the road, because they do have the Anhui entity, they do have the PPE joint venture, right, with Audi with FAW. So these are all past 2025, right?

Tu Le:
Which is a lifetime away in EV years.

Lei Xing:
So now ID. seems, I think ID. was actually okay based on the June numbers. But for a while, right, the Mercedes EQCs, the iX3s, all of these, Audi e-trons, right? We look at that chart that NIO did of different price segments, the volumes are not there yet, and they're going to continue to have headaches increasing volumes. So that's the tough part.

Tu Le:
This is before the ES7 and the L9 come out, they're having troubles on sales volume. So the one thing that's for sure is that BMW and Mercedes with their midsize premium SUVs that are in the EV sector or segment, they're going to have to reduce price, full stop. Mark that down, they're going to reduce price, especially, maybe right before they start delivering the L9s and the ES7s. And Mark, if you're listening, we had conversations because we're stuck in Beijing traffic just talking about his time at Mercedes and stuff. So maybe you can also comment with the culture at Mercedes while you are working here in China and in Beijing. And because you kind of alluded to how difficult it is to be to change that culture in the German companies, right? So if you're listening Mark feel free to chime in.

Mark Rainford:
Yeah, certainly in China, things are a lot quicker because it's just the mentality to move quicker here, but having worked over in Germany as well, everything is just, it's so much slower and it is partially down to employment rules. So because it's really difficult to get rid of anybody. But also, as you mentioned loads of times, these, a lot of electric cars now, 90% of the product is software and the rest of it is the car. And all these legacy car companies are stepped up to be car companies, engineering companies. So they had thousands of engineers working on diesel engines and petrol engines who suddenly are unable to work on electric cars. That's not the specialty anymore. And also that I think I would say definitely in Germany, there's a, shame more so than in any other place that I’ve worked. And that permeates. And it takes a really long way, a really huge effort, a long time to make that move. And I think that's what Diess faced at Volkswagen. And maybe he had to push them too far, so some people have greeted against that. Certainly at Mercedes making change happen really quickly was a little problem. And we had projects that we started, because we thought instead of going to a software company will do ourselves all kinds of things. They spend billions on the projects. They take 5 years after 5 years there would be nothing at the end of it. Then they decided, right, let’s rename the projects and do it again with another project, and it never happened. So there's kind of a pride in wanting to do things themselves, which I get because I like doing that kind of thing myself, but you’ve got to accept cars are not necessarily just about being an engineered vehicle anymore. That's only half the product. The rest of it is software, user experience making things work and it's a slow process. It's probably coming. But they kind of have to realize it faster because China adapts super quick to anything. You see how much as changed in the last 10 years. Speed of change is not a thing that is feared here, but it is feared especially in Germany.

Lei Xing:
Great point. I mean me being a way for 2.5 years, I feel already I’m very “tu”, you know what I mean, like if I were to go back now, I probably would not be used to certain things, even though I’ve lived in China for like 20 years, because things they changed by the days and weeks.

Tu Le:
I think the first thing that would amaze you Lei, is the number of green plates in Beijing and Shanghai, right? I really think that.

Mark Rainford:
I think actually more in Xi’an now. I was looking today, and proportion is even higher in the smaller cities.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, so going back to Mark’s comments, I was going to say that in Chinese, there's a saying called “yidu gongdu”, which means you use poison to cure poison. And I think that's, many of the foreign legacy automakers that they have to admit, they have to go through that. Ford is admitting, right? 30,000, was it 3,000 or 30,000 employees? 3,000. Rivian just made an employee cut, right?

Tu Le:
6%, yep.

Lei Xing:
So Volkswagen eventually will have to do the same thing.

Tu Le:
Volkswagen needs to eliminate brands in China. They can't have this many brands.

Lei Xing:
Yeah I alked about that. So these sacrifices or these that you have to go through or pain that you have to go through. I said, right, no pain or gain.

Tu Le:
GM did it right? They got rid of Oldsmobile, they got rid of Hummer. They're bringing Hummer back, but as an EV brand, but it is concerning. It's awesome time to be in the EV space globally. Because I think we're starting to see green shoots for the U.S. and build all the chips and all the stuff…

Lei Xing:
Yeah the CHIPS Act and Inflation Reduction Act with those new tax credit rules.

Tu Le:
And our man, Taylor and Jack, they are the BYD guys. And so I think it's going to be a lot of smiles from the Snowbull team come next year when BYD just freaking blitzs the entire world with all of their products, right? So man, 300,000 units a month, starting in August Lei, we're going to see even more BYDs, especially in OZ, come the end of this year, beginning of next. So I see them quickly becoming the number one EV brand in Australia, maybe by Q1 or Q2 of 2023.

Lei Xing:
So hopefully that shut down for a week. Was it at the Shenzhen campus? Hopefully that was just a blip. And so far Beijing, Shanghai has been okay, there's been outbreaks in other parts of China. But this is going to continue for a while, I think. But hopefully that won't affect the outlook, which I said was 6 million +. So.

Tu Le:
Really quickly, if anyone has any questions about the cars that we talked about, please raise your hand. If not, maybe we can close this out. I think it was cool seeing the RT6 because we, Mark had tweeted we were the first English speaking media. I don't really consider myself media, but we were the first English speaking media to see the RT6 live. So that was cool.

Lei Xing:
And we talk about it on CEM so maybe yes.

Tu Le:
Yeah. So the one thing that is actually creating some heat here in China is the Lotu, the ELETRE. I think they're really trying to build some momentum with that. The irony is, Geely is a major contributor to both brands. It almost seems like they're going to compete against each other, the Polestar 3 and the Lotus ELETRE. But in pricing wise, the ELETRE is going to be a bit more premium price, but they're both going to be built in China. Polestar 3 is also going to be built in South Carolina. So brands having fights within the family, that's going to be pretty interesting to watch as well, right? So if anyone does not have any questions, Lei, how about we close it off today?

Lei Xing:
Sure we can do that. And next week we'll talk about July EV sales.

Tu Le:
Yeah, and then again, a reminder Mark, when you're done, hanging out with your minion friends, get those videos up, check out Inside China Auto on YouTube website, and then also we have John Voelcker’s MAX episode that will be a probably end of next week. So had a great time talking to him. Super knowledgeable, fun talk with him. So good morning, good afternoon, and good evening.

Lei Xing:
And then another housekeeping. So the next guest we will have, at least one of the next guests we will have will be someone on batteries again, or upstream raw materials on batteries.

Tu Le:
I'm looking forward to that because he knows a ton anyways. 
 
That brings us to the end of this week show. Lei and I thank you for tuning in. My name is Tu Le and you can find me on twitter @sinoautoinsight. You can find Lei on twitter @leixing77. If you wouldn't mind rating and or reviewing us on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you grab your podcast from, we'd appreciate that as well. Even better if you enjoy this show, please tell your friends about it. Please join this again next week as we track down all the latest news on China EVs & More.