Tu and Lei start the podcast out with a discussion on NIO's Q3 earnings and bullish Q4 outlook, specifically what it'll take for NIO to hit 20K units for the month of December.
The discussion moves onto Geely's big week that started with the Farizon commercial vehicle launch moving onto the Geely & Renault powertrain tieup, then the Volvo EX90 unveil to finally the Radar RD6 camper launch.
Tu pushes into a deeper dive about Renault and their announcements that week including its doubling down on the Google partnership and how they will become digital, connected and electric via their Ampere entity.
The podcast closes out with Lei talking about pricing inflection point where NEV sales volume drops off significantly and what it says about the China market.
Tu and Lei start the podcast out with a discussion on NIO's Q3 earnings and bullish Q4 outlook, specifically what it'll take for NIO to hit 20K units for the month of December.
The discussion moves onto Geely's big week that started with the Farizon commercial vehicle launch moving onto the Geely & Renault powertrain tieup, then the Volvo EX90 unveil to finally the Radar RD6 camper launch.
Tu pushes into a deeper dive about Renault and their announcements that week including its doubling down on the Google partnership and how they will become digital, connected and electric via their Ampere entity.
The podcast closes out with Lei talking about pricing inflection point where NEV sales volume drops off significantly and what it says about the China market.
CEM #91 Transcript
Recorded 11/10/22
Tu Le:
Hi everyone and welcome to China EVs & More where my co-host Lei Xing and I will go over the week's most important and interesting news coming out of the China EV, AV and mobility sectors. What Lei and I discuss today is based on our opinions and should not be taken as investment advice. If you enjoy this room, please help us get the word out to other enthusiasts, and of course, tune in again next week.
My name is Tu Le. I'm the managing director at Sino Auto Insights, a management consultancy that helps organizations bring innovative and tech-focused products and services to the transportation and mobility sectors. I write a free weekly newsletter that we pull many of our discussion topics from. You can sign up for it at sinoautoinsights.com, which I encourage you all to do. On a lovely autumn day, good afternoon Lei. Can you please introduce yourself?
Lei Xing:
Yes sir! Good afternoon from my side. I am your co-host Lei Xing, former chief editor of China Auto Review, and this is episode #91. It's technically…
Tu Le:
Creeping up, creeping up.
Lei Xing:
It's technically Singles Day, China time. So how's that shopping cart going?
Tu Le:
Shiyi Shiyi?
Lei Xing:
My wife is already done with her shopping, so.
Tu Le:
Oh man, I used to buy more things at JD than my wife bought stuff at Alibaba, So.
Lei Xing:
Anyways, we're going to go backwards in our topics. So starting off with NIO, which just had their Q3 earnings. What can I say? A lot of details shared by William in the earnings call. Very juicy details, I think.
Tu Le:
Very informative too, like actually useful information.
Lei Xing:
Yeah. And I think we've all been looking to that “boom” moment. It seems that we're almost there, right? But at least the Q4 guidance was.
Tu Le:
Very positive.
Lei Xing:
Very positive. So I think the general, financially, was that their revenues beat expectations, but still losing a lot of money, but the delivery guidance was pretty upbeat. Especially William saying that they're going to try to do a 20,000 run rate in December. So a that's a big step up, I think.
Tu Le:
What we should make sure everyone understands is that they shouldn't fall for the sizzle of four products launching in Europe. By the end this year, there will probably be only a few hundred deliveries in Europe. Whereas the bulk of the attention should be paid to November and December. Where like Lei had just mentioned, they are hoping to get to 20,000, a 20,000-unit run rate, which would be quite significant if you look at their volumes over the last several months. So again, exciting news that they've launched in Europe, but that share price is probably going to be more affected by those significant increases in deliveries in China, so.
Lei Xing:
Yeah, good thing, the share price is going up today.
Tu Le:
Positive news, so.
Lei Xing:
Yeah, they've been stagnant, I’ll just say that. And if we look back to the Q2 earnings, when they had the Q3 guidance was 31,000 to 33,000. And they reached pretty much the lower side of the guidance with just over 31,000 in Q3. Now, with October done, meaning they'll have about what, 35,000nish over the last 2 months? So I don't expect deliveries to be over 20,000 this year, probably will get to what 15,000, should be no problem, 18,000 even possibly, but with the production run rate of 20,000, you would expect the delivery numbers to be somewhat lower.
Tu Le:
And you're throwing these numbers out Lei, like pretty confidently. And I agree with you, but we also should point back to the challenges that NIO has had itself operationally and then look at the external market because things are still locked down. There are still lockdowns happening in China, in Beijing and in Shanghai. So don't be surprised if there is any interruption in production in the next 6 or 7 weeks.
Lei Xing:
We just heard officially the Beijing Auto Show. I mean, that it was never going to happen, right?
Tu Le:
Never.
Lei Xing:
At least the official statement that it was not going to be held and the Guangzhou Auto Show being delayed, possibly still being held in mid-December, but we don't know. But it was interesting to hear William mention BYD in the earnings call, because, as you said, NIO has its own problems, but BYD is chugging along. So that shows a kind of a contrast. And then pertaining to NIO, specifically, I think he mentioned several factors. One is the sub frame that has some issues that affected several thousand units of production. And then COVIDE was, I think they were shut down for almost a week.
Tu Le:
I heard 7,000 units of lost production in October, so.
Lei Xing:
So depending on how you look at it, I think 50,000, pessimistically, it wasn't as high as expected, but optimistically, it's actually pretty good considering the current environment.
Tu Le:
And, where NIO should have a lot more good news relative to its U.S. traded counterparts, Li Auto and Xpeng, is that they have three vehicles that have launched within the last 4 months. And so that momentum should follow them into 2023, whereas Xpeng and Li Auto, it could be pretty challenging specifically for Xpeng, just because the G9 is the single thoroughbred that Xpeng has relative to its much older siblings, the G3, P5, and P7, so.
Lei Xing:
And William also mentioned about their R&D investment being RMB3 billion per quarter on a consistent basis. So going forward, this is something to watch at NIO, is their vertical integration kind of extension since he did mention BYD right? Meaning their AD chip R&D already 500 people, their battery business. There is just going to be a lot going on on that part. And then two brands, he mentioned two brands, including the mass brand. Basically, he said without the vertical integration, you're not going to get to that 20% gross margin for the mass brand, again citing BYD.
Tu Le:
No one will. Because that services revenue for any real automakers, 7-8years out at least, right? So significant services revenue.
Lei Xing:
He did mention, somebody asked about the city-NGP type of ADAS and he was like it's going to be another 1 to 2 years for that to even contribute any significant meanings to the margins. And also, it's pretty much what Xpeng is facing, legislation and tech, right? And the other very interesting number that he gave out was every RMB100,000 in lithium carbonate prices equates to 2 points in margins. That was interesting.
Tu Le:
So it hits the bottom line, so it's not blended into a revenue.
Lei Xing:
Right now, it's what, RMB600,000 per ton or $80,000. And they're budgeting it RMB400,000 for 2023. So that kind of, but he was really confident saying with all these disruptions easy 25%-30% for the NIO brand at least, easy to reach, but I don't…
Tu Le:
You know what Lei, if my aunt was a man, he’d be my uncle. So if there wasn't a thunderstorm, I’d be dry, so.
Lei Xing:
It’s also like listening to him saying, oh, the beating 3 Series and get into 30,000 a month for a single model, that's not what I’m looking for. Obviously, what the heck? I'm sure he'd be happy, but again, that shows that this “boom” or hump that we're talking about: doing 10,000 a month versus they already, they're going to have what, 150,000 per plant single shift, 300,000, getting to that level is a lot harder, right? I think.
Tu Le:
We're seeing this in the Unite States as well with Rivian and Lucid. Because Rivian has, is adding a second shift. And they said that they're not, they are only building a few thousand cars a month.
Lei Xing:
Quarter.
Tu Le:
So, yeah exactly, sorry, quarter. And so it is really challenging for them, full stop. And then on top of that, chip supplies, supply chain issues, pricing issues. I think one of the reasons William had articulated all these things is because he wants everyone to know that, hey, man, NIO’s business is pretty complicated. So we're doing the best we can. It's not like they're sitting around doing nothing, right? And so I think it was kind of an emphasis on, hey, we're doing the best we can, and we should see fruits from our labor in December, right?
Lei Xing:
Yes. That's the sense that I got.
Tu Le:
Not only that, but the one aside was that NIO is also going to be working with Horizon, right? So they have an internal team designing ASICs.
Lei Xing:
Right. That was announced by the Horizon CEO for the mass brand. Yeah.
Tu Le:
So someone asked me about that and my take on that and you poke holes in it, Lei, is that Horizon made the announcement because they want other domestic EV makers to know that they're open for business. Just because Volkswagen has 40, 50, I think it’s 40% ownership, that does not mean that we are exclusive to Volkswagen. And we will share the most technologically advanced products we have with external customers as much as we will share it with Volkswagen, so.
Lei Xing:
Yeah so he mentioned five new models by the first half from next year, but I don't think they're going to be any new or all-new models. Probably iterations of…
Tu Le:
The derivatives.
Lei Xing:
Existing, yeah, could be like a what, EC7, those type of…
Tu Le:
De-contented.
Lei Xing:
Yeah. It’ll be interesting to see what they announced at the NIO Day in about a month. Probably quite a few of those cars will be presented.
Tu Le:
It helps with pricing differentiation a little bit and hopefully expands their volume a bit, right? Because you would hope that they studied and learned their lesson from Li Auto, and effectively cannibalizing the Li ONE months before it was ready to be end of life, so.
Lei Xing:
The L8 just started deliveries today, that there was another news from competition. And also, they, NIO doesn't have plans for MPV anytime soon. So that’s…
Tu Le:
There's some controversy on Twitter about that, right? So. That's what you get for starting rumors, dude.
Lei Xing:
I think a lot of questions were surrounding the ET5, because there was, and William he kind of said Tesla dropping prices, it's not going to affect too much. We're not in the same price band and all that. So that's yeah.
Tu Le:
But he's being modest because the ET5 is definitely targeting Model 3, right? So.
Lei Xing:
Model 3, 3 Series, all of that. So we should at least see 10,000 or 5-digit every month from now on. That's the guidance. Anything less would be really surprising.
Tu Le:
Especially from the backdrop of 6 million, half a million cars a month from the Chinese market, right? Because if they're still at 10, 12, 14,000 units and we're at 6, 6.5 million run rate, annual runway for NEVs sold in China, they're actually losing share, they're losing market, right? So we have to also become cognizant of that.
Lei Xing:
So this year they're going to get to, if they get the, let's say, 50,000 in Q4, they're going to get to over 130,000. Now, let's conservative, conservatively predict that they can double this in 2023, which is 260,000. That's, if they can maintain that 20,000 run rate a month, it's doable. It's very possible.
Tu Le:
I feel that it is completely in their control because of these operational challenges that they have, right?
Lei Xing:
Look at what happened to Xpeng. I think their internal target for 2022 was well over 200,000. And where are they now? But theoretically, without these disruptions, the trend is pointing to that direction that doubling over this year should not be a problem based on demand, so.
Tu Le:
William Li is completely bullish on his product lineup. What he is.
Lei Xing:
Well he is the CEO.
Tu Le:
What he's cautious about is operationally whether they can put everything together, right? Because if it's not one thing, it's another. Production wise, they're humming along, and then all of a sudden COVID comes and shut down their factory. So there's these mitigating factors, but there's also a lot that they still control. And you and I feel pretty bullish about their product portfolio. There's a few ES6, ES8 that do need some refreshes, right? Because if you're 18 months or longer in the market without a fairly significant software update that changes or adds features, you're probably not getting a lot of foot traffic in your retail stores. We're seeing that with Xpeng, G9 is not enough to lift the other products, the other older products in their portfolio. With Li Auto, they just don't have that many to begin with, so how they will, the L8 and the L9 will complement each other from a sales standpoint. You would think the L8 would be the high runner, the L9 would be the flagship. So maybe there's a 1.5:1 ratio of L8 sales to L9 sales. So we'll see, it's going to be an interesting 2023 as we finally figure out if the Chinese government is going to pull those COVID incentives away, which people are fearing and predicting, right?
Lei Xing:
So in summary, the general picture seems to be rosy based on the earnings call and William’s comments. Now it’s just a matter of really getting over that hump, as we say whether they can do it, if they can do it, then we're really looking at a, everybody needs to be in a good rhythm, one like BYD.
Tu Le:
The machine, BYD the machine.
Lei Xing:
Nobody... I heard they're planning for 280,000 sales in December.
Tu Le:
Shameless plug Lei. I was interviewed by Russell Flannery for Forbes, who is one of the senior auto reporters for Forbes. He did an interview with Wang Chuanfu. I helped him with some background. If you're interested, anyone that's interested in BYD, they need to read Russell’s article that posted 2 days ago or yesterday. So it's a good background. And effectively, he said, talk less and do more, right?
Lei Xing:
Yeah. I mean, so it's good to see our CEM friends over in BYD, doing that tour and test drive.
Tu Le:
They went from not having a PR team to basically having a bunch of KOLs be their PR team, right? So.
Lei Xing:
Yeah, exactly. So, and us too.
Tu Le:
We'll get a chance, I'm sure, so.
Lei Xing:
Yeah, we already have. So thanks to Snowbull.
Tu Le:
What's next?
Lei Xing:
EX90? Geely, the whole Geely week, basically.
Tu Le:
Yes, maybe you can summarize for us bullet point what Geely week, what entailed of Geely week. So.
Lei Xing:
On Monday was the, Farizon, Farizon, Farizon Auto launching that Super Van and Homtruck cables event. And then on Tuesday was the Geely Renault tie-up on the powertrain.
Tu Le:
Yes, ICE side, on the ICE side.
Lei Xing:
Yeah and on Wednesday was the Volvo EX90 reveal, then the RD6 pickup launched, camper or whatever camper.
Tu Le:
Yeah, I feel like it's a no frills truck, or pickup.
Tu Le:
It's cheap, relatively.
Lei Xing:
Relatively, right.
Tu Le:
It's not some premium. And you know, I have a ton of respect for Ash, but when he's talking about Geely cars, I have to take that with a grain of salt, right? So.
Lei Xing:
Yes, the other news was also related was Volvo divesting in this Aurobay powertrain joint venture. And basically, I think that's going to clear the way for that joint venture to be absorbed into the Geely Renault entity, I believe, right? Because it's really basically doing the same thing. They're just going to pull everything together. And that's a huge entity based on the global footprint.
Tu Le:
That is going to eventually get wound down, right? Because it's ICE and hybrid, so.
Lei Xing:
And then really not China related, but the Renault side, it felt like, they did their capital markets day. It felt like one company is going into what, 4 or 5 different companies, right? So the EV business, there is the Ampere, which is basically the “CARIAD” of Renault, right?
Tu Le:
Which is going to rely a lot on Nissan IP that they haven't agreed to share yet.
Lei Xing:
Right.
Tu Le:
This should be noted because Nissan doesn't want Renault to share that with Geely.
Lei Xing:
Yeah, I think these are still being debated and discussed in the background to figure to sort things out.
Tu Le:
Yes, it is. And we should also note that Renault, Luca de Meo, leaned into their relationship with Google. It's been a standing relationship since 2018. And Luca de Meo said that they're going to really rely on Google to help them come up with revenue generating services. So again, I have a post in this week's newsletter that I'm pretty cynical about these legacies inviting the fox into the hen house. So I just don't know. Let me ask you this Lei, if you're Luca de Meo, do you believe that eventually Renault via Ampere will build out its own ecosystem, digital ecosystem that will substitute and then substitute it out for Google. Or how do you think he's thinking about that?
Lei Xing:
I think based on what these legacies have announced and based on what Volvo, they just did their capital markets today, following the EX90 launch. And I get the sense is that Stellantis, Renault, even Mercedes, all of these legacies, they're going to go to the route of control some things on their own while opening that bridge, I quote, to others. That's what I’m getting, it’s not going to completely closed or depending on others.
Tu Le:
I know it's a necessary evil because they can't create and digitize themselves in the period of time they need to, I get that. But it's almost damned if do and damned if you don't, it's a dangerous and risky move. Because if I'm an Android user and I buy a Renault, then I can completely bypass any type of Renault ecosystem, although Renault will get a share of that revenue via their Amperee vehicle that is using Google as the digital platform. Remember that Google has partnered with other automakers. So the data that they're collecting and sharing is going to be added with Google's other legacy partners. And it's going to be much more powerful that way. We already know the technology companies, whether you are Chinese or American. They're much better at gathering the data, analyzing the data, coming up with new businesses for that data, and then generating and monetizing that data. The legacies have no idea. Let's make a full stop on that. They have no idea how to monetize the services, right? So, and the one irony that I thought was kind of a head scratcher was Luca had emphasized that we're going to have vehicles that act like mobile phones and he highlighted an over the air experience, right? Where it's like in real time we're going to update software. I'm like that is not a feature, that should be a qualifier that everyone, most EV companies in China can do it, Tesla can do it. So don't, why are you emphasizing that? So I digress.
Lei Xing:
But it's going to take them some time, right? To come to fruition, anyways.
Tu Le:
And we have to also emphasize that how it's going to play out in Europe due to the data, privacy and security laws being very different from the U.S. and China, maybe that allows them to really, really maintain ownership of those new services, those new businesses. Because one thing that another article that I will be posting in my newsletter is that the European Commission is pretty upset, all 27 countries, the finance ministers are upset about the Inflation Reduction Act. They think it's unfair. And it unlevels the playing field. I don't know what that means, because it's not articulated in detail. But so there's definitely going to be pushed back on the U.S. side and then on the China side. If you're the European Union so interesting to see how that'll play out as more and more Chinese EV companies enter Europe and the number of vehicles imported into Europe from China increases significantly.
Lei Xing:
And speaking of it, Geely is in the loop, again, they're launching the Geometry models into some European countries, right? That's the other.
Tu Le:
And you saw that on Monday, I had written that because that Farizon announcement, I tweeted and listed all those brands, right?
Lei Xing:
Yes. And missing smart and many others probably.
Tu Le:
Yeah I ran out of characters. And so.
Lei Xing:
Yeah that Farizon or whatever. It's also a global play, the Super Van, that's a huge segment in Europe.
Tu Le:
As it's more short haul than long haul, but it is encroaching on a TuSimple space, right? Because in China, TuSimple was more short haul than long haul, trucking, and in the United States they're more long haul. So.
Lei Xing:
Also playing into that business, the Geespace, Geely’s satellite business is also interesting. Geely and NIO, they're both building smartphones. That's, right?
Tu Le:
And didn't NIO say they're building watches?
Lei Xing:
I don't remember. Maybe they do.
Tu Le:
I have to ask you, though, like EX90, Polestar 3, $10,000 difference. I could not really find out what the distinction of features between the two vehicles are. So.
Lei Xing:
I think the difference being one is a lot more performance based.
Tu Le:
Okay.
Lei Xing:
The other is really the kind of the Volvo brand safety-focused, traditional starting if we talk about XC90 is the first vehicle that had that new design language that kind of when we talk about Volvo that we immediately think about the XC90 I think. So whereas Polestar it’s pretty new. And that's why I think I, from the press conference, the event just felt more down to earth for some reason, more likable for EX90.
Tu Le:
Less cold, less cold.
Lei Xing:
Yeah, EX90 and it might be cheesy, but I probably would be in the market for EX90. Although both are, you have to wait till 2024.
Tu Le:
And one thing I didn't hear is, will they be building the EX90 in South Carolina as well?
Lei Xing:
Yes, first in the U.S. and then later on in China, right?
Tu Le:
Right, that’s right. That's what I thought.
Lei Xing:
I think that seems to me is placing importance on the North American market first, probably as far as production is concerned.
Tu Le:
But that goes back to the European Union having those concerns, right? So Volvo is going to have those same concerns about getting shut out of the subsidy stuff, right?
Lei Xing:
And Hyundai Kia, the plant in Georgia was sped up, right? Because of it. But one, they're on their way, right? So one new model every year in the next few years and that teaser of that much smaller.
Tu Le:
EX60 or 40?
Lei Xing:
I think it might be closer to EX40, because it looked a lot smaller than the 90. So.
Tu Le:
I believe so too, because you have a flagship and you need a high runner because that flagship might sell 10, 12,000 units, $100,000 in the United States. I don't know, maybe 10,000, 12,000 units for the year, at least the first year. So, and we have to remember that this is an electric vehicle, so it's not like same production process. They're going to be on a learning experience as well. So it's going to be a slow ramp initially to make sure that the supply pipeline for battery cells, for the chassis and all that stuff is all filled before they can really, really ramp, so.
Lei Xing:
1.2 million, 2025, half of those are BEVs. So you do your math, right? How much they can get with the models. And then just quickly on the October EV sales, all the numbers have come out. One set of numbers, I thought it was interesting was the CPCA numbers by price range in October: below RMB100,000 28%, RMB100,000 to RMB200,000 46%, and RMB200,000 to RMB300,000 19%.
Tu Le:
So for the listeners, RMB100,000 is about $17,000, $16,000, okay?
Lei Xing:
Yeah, so you add these percentage up. I get 95% of the market is below, the EV market, NEV market is below RMB300,000. And roughly 75% below RMB200,000. So that kind of gives you an indication of where the market is. So that's one. And then penetration wise, the Chinese brands, they are roughly 50%, 10X more than the mass JV brands which are at 5%. That's another indication of the volume by these different segments. And then it's a foregone conclusion, man. I'm saying, you know, I’m saying 6.5, 6.8, but that's obviously including, this is another very interesting data, January to October, half a million, more than half a million NEVs were exported. So that's included in the sales numbers. A little bit of grain of salt, right? But still you add everything together. I said 6.8 million total, 25% of the market are NEVs. That's the foregone conclusion, right? And I put two question marks on next year and I’m going to answer them, whether we'll get to 10 million and whether BYD will get to 4 million, my answer is resounding yes. The reason being…
Tu Le:
To both?!
Lei Xing:
EVs are becoming Vs. I'm taking a page out of your preso. That's the only reason: EVs are becoming Vs. We're way past on talking about despite I think there's all of news that are concerning about 2023, but I have every reason to believe that we can get to 10 million. 100% growth? No, that's not going to happen.
Tu Le:
And this is if there is a recession Lei, or if in the, because a lot of people are saying that NEV sales for 2023 in China specifically are going to slow fairly significantly, so.
Lei Xing:
Relatively is 50% growth, is slower than 100% growth. Yes. Right?
Tu Le:
No, no. That's fair.
Lei Xing:
Yeah, but still I think the volume is going to be there.
Tu Le:
And that makes that yearend take rate if we're at 25 million, that's going to be about 30 something percent, right? So much higher than the 25 that they were targeting by 2025.
Lei Xing:
So 20% is the official target for 2025.
Tu Le:
Yes. And if we can rewind a second, lei, this 90, over 90% of NEVs sold in China were less than RMB300,000. In October, less than RMB300,000, that would scare the crap out of me. If I was a European automaker selling EVs in Europe, because most of these EV, most of these legacy automakers in Europe are launching higher end vehicles. And so if they are, and remember this is in the backdrop of 2035, the European Union eliminating the sale of ICEs and diesel fueled vehicles. So the take rate needs to increase significantly over the next several years. And I don't think the legacy automakers in Europe have the products to fill that void, right?
Lei Xing:
I think that's this time window where we're seeing this huge export volumes out of China. And it's not only to Europe, right? I think Mexico, Chile were some of…
Tu Le:
Southeast Asia.
Lei Xing:
And that might include ICE as well. But still, I think it's availability. And as you see, right? 39,000-Euro U6 from AIWAYS, right? Yeah, that's not expensive, right?
Tu Le:
The Europeans cannot say they were blindsided surprise because Tavares already turned on the alarm bell, right? So he knows that they will come if you allow them to. But this puts European consumer at a precarious position, because if there are no viable multiple products that I can choose from at the lower price segments, I have to buy either a Renault ZOE, or an ID.3 or an ID.4 or whatever.
Lei Xing:
Dacia Spring? Those type of vehicles made in China.
Tu Le:
Yeah it doesn't give me a ton of options, right? So.
Lei Xing:
I think, speaking of that the car, which is made by eGT think, in October, they exported like 13,000 units behind Tesla and SAIC probably in terms of export volume. Then the other topic I listed was CIIE. I think it's, I mean, to us it’s obviously more than automotive, but to us it was like an auto show, right? Because considering everything was either cancelled or ended early prematurely, it felt like an auto show and I think it was kind of a respite for these foreign automakers to be there, because there were no Chinese brands exhibiting. So although it was more diplomatic and still, I think it was, some interesting reveals, for example, the Celestiq actually made the China debut at the Durant Guild, right? With Hummer EV they're doing a lot of media test drives.
Tu Le:
The Corvette was there right?
Lei Xing:
Celestiq, that's going to be a few million RMB personalized, every order will be different, will be a different car type of thing.
Tu Le:
It’ll be bespoke.
Lei Xing:
Yeah, bespoke. And then some other brands, let's say Honda launched the global debut of their next, the e:N2 concept. So that's their next EVs is coming up. Toyota presented the bZ4X and bZ3, Ford had the F-150 Lightning, Tesla obviously made again, big news with the Bot and the Plaid, right? And then dropping insurance again. So all of those things happening.
Tu Le:
And speaking of
Lei Xing:
Hyundai actually, they had a different event unrelated to the CIIE, but I thought that was interesting that they're trying to get back on top. I think Beijing-Hyundai announced a new strategy to get back to how many whatever sales. And yeah.
Tu Le:
The only thing I think about when I think of Hyundai is cheap cars and taxis. Because when I moved to Beijing in 2009, every taxi I got into was a Hyundai. So.
Lei Xing:
Yeah, I'd say Hyundai and Kia that their brand image have been really diluted in the past however number of years and being a multiple Hyundai owner, both in China and the U.S., I feel it's completely, I mean how Hyundai and Kia here in the U.S., that feel right, that the brand image is totally different.
Tu Le:
Kia is everywhere here in the U.S., it’s everywhere. And they are the second most popular EV in the United States, I believe. So.
Lei Xing:
Second or third.
Tu Le:
They're doing well, very well. And speaking of Tesla, share price down to under $250. There was an article that said that they were sitting on about 16,000 units of inventory at the end of October, which is the largest inventory they've sat on ever since the opening of Shanghai Gigafactory. I think that's fairly significant because they can't hide it anymore. They can't ship it to Europe. And so.
Lei Xing:
Look for Tesla to reduce prices again next year. I'm just going to say it here, because they still have room to do so, they still have that card to play.
Tu Le:
Unless they come out and surprises with a refresh or something. I agree with you, because they just don't have any new product.
Lei Xing:
They will, it’s just a matter of timing, I think.
Tu Le:
No, what I meant is like 2023. I don't think there's still anything. It is 3:47, if anyone has any questions, let's open it up. I don't. Let me see here. Look at through my notes. I don't really have anything else going on. Do you have anything else that we should talk about?
Lei Xing:
The only other thing I think relates to what we're talking a on a daily and a weekly basis is the LiDAR space. There was some interesting news with the…
Tu Le:
Luminar.
Lei Xing:
Outster and Velodyne combining. And then RoboSense and Hesai, the last few days, respectively, launched their flash solid-state LiDAR for blind spot monitoring. That was an interesting play. So I think we're seeing this LiDAR space being consolidated right in front of our eyes.
Tu Le:
And there's likely similar things going on the other sensor stacks, but because LiDAR is so visual, I think it's easy to kind of key in on, right?
Lei Xing:
And again, going back to the EX90 and the Polestar 3, we're seeing that bump from, on the top, from Luminar, right?
Tu Le:
People are saying Volvo’s bump is similar to NIO’s. I don't know how you design that much differently, right?
Lei Xing:
That's, but I'm just saying that we're seeing that happening outside of China now.
Tu Le:
Yes, yes.
Tu Le:
That brings us to the end of this week show. Lei and I thank you for tuning in. My name is Tu Le and you can find me on twitter @sinoautoinsight. You can find Lei on twitter @leixing77. If you wouldn't mind rating and or reviewing us on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you grab your podcast from, we'd appreciate that as well. Even better if you enjoy this show, please tell your friends about it. Please join this again next week as we track down all the latest news on China EVs & More.