Episode #165 - US Tariffs, BYD's non-Chinese Global Unveil, Autonomous Vehicle Continues Progress in China

Tu and Lei start the podcast out by debating about the recent increased tariff announcements made by the Biden Administration and whether its all politics or if there is some real fear about the US Three not being able to compete. 

They move that discussion over to BYD having its first global launch of a passenger vehicle outside of China. It turns into a broader discussion about their products, how they're suited (or not) to foreign markets and how said products could possibly perform outside of China.

Tu flips the script and pushes the conversation from tariffs to subsidies on the US side and points to Tesla being a major recipient of them. 

They both agree that battery swapping isn't a flash in the pan and is something, at least in China, is a viable option for electric vehicles. 

The podcast ends with a discussion on some of the latest announcements and unveils by Baidu Apollo with the RT6 L4 robotaxi and Pony's pilot pushing into Beijing's CBD area. 

Transcript

CEM #165 Transcript
Recorded 5/18/24

Tu Le:
Hi all and welcome to China EVs & More where my co-host Lei Xing and I will go to the week's most important and interesting news coming out of the global EV, AV and mobility sectors. What Lei and I discuss today is based on our opinions and should not be taken as investment advice. For those that are new to the show, welcome. And to our loyal listeners, welcome back. We ask that you please help us get the word out to other enthusiasts about this podcast and tune in again next week. 

My name is Tu Le. I am the managing director at Sino Auto Insights, a global management consultancy that helps organizations bring innovative and tech-focused products and services to the transportation and mobility sectors. I write a free weekly newsletter that we pull many of our discussion topics from. You can sign up for it on substack at sinoautoinsights.substack.com, which I encourage you all to do. Lei, a hurried Lei. Can you please introduce yourself.

Lei Xing:
A on the road for 20 days since the start of our trip to Shenzhen on April 28 Lei, a just got back to Beijing sat down in the apartment Lei. And this is episode #165. I am your co-host Lei Xing, former chief editor of China Auto Review. Yes I just, literally stepped into the door, sat down, set up the equipment, returning from Shenzhen via the overnight sleeper train, which is a great way if you want efficiency and kind of bang for the buck combining hotel and travel into one, it's $160 for the train ride. So if you want efficiency, you do that. But if you want fun, you do what we did two weeks ago, or three weeks ago.

Tu Le:
Has it been three weeks?

Lei Xing:
It has. It's been 20 or 21 days, exactly since we left on, 20 days. We left on Sunday morning, the April 28. So, I've been outside of Beijing ever since then, the road trip, the Volvo China Open and I just came back from this TechBuzz China investor EV trip that I helped organize. And we've visited a bunch of companies and cities. What do you want to talk about first?

Tu Le:
Well, what do you? So, I mean we can talk about the tariffs. Let's talk about the tariffs.

Lei Xing:
We can talk about the tariffs.

Tu Le:
So you and I gave our opinions to some media outlets. I think. So. What do you think?

Lei Xing:
America is not going to protect itself into the EV glory that we're seeing in China and the rest of the world that are happening. That's number one. Two, election year, it's all politics, that's, put it out there and see what happens. And third, it's not going to do anything for now because the Chinese brands are not yet in the U.S., they could still be even with the 100% tariff, they could still be competitive EV products, even if they take the 100% EV tariff. Those are my three points.

Tu Le:
So I, what was your second point again? 

Lei Xing:
We have to listen back to the recordings.

Tu Le:
No, so you said it's all politics. I actually don't believe that. I actually think that the Biden administration is truly fearful that the U.S. 3 would get gutted. So because I'm here in Detroit, I'm hearing a lot, I’m getting a lot of queries for my opinion. Yeah, I don't know. So the thing is if the Chinese EV company started shipping to the United States, it wouldn't immediately hurt the U.S. 3 because they all really build trucks and SUVs. So if some SUVs were being shipped, then it could be damaging. But the sedans, the small A-class, B-class sedans and crossovers that would actually hurt the Koreans and the Japanese more in the U.S. market, Volkswagen a little bit. So I think with Biden, it is. So with Biden making 100%, because the 25% was already kind of on a track, made it unattractive. The 100% completely makes it unattractive. But as soon as Trump said, he’d double it to 200%, then it really became all about politics in trying to outdo each other. So I don't know. I feel that this might buy the U.S. 3, 2.5, 3 years. But you saw there's an article in the New York Times. I think it was New York Times or Wall Street Journal that Tesla is currently shipping Chinese made or from Shanghai Giga, Model 3s and Ys or Model 3s to Canada. So in order for the U.S. tariffs to be really effective, they're going to need Mexico's cooperation. And to a lesser extent, they're going to need the U.S. cooperation. So I'm wondering is the Biden administration has that buy in? I don't know if they do.

Lei Xing:
And we heard, so the BYD Shark recently launched, revealed in Mexico, and we've heard Stella Li basically on the record saying we're going to focus on Mexico. We're going to focus on South America. U.S. is not, we're not looking to export into the U.S., at least not now. And it's not, this tariff hike is not affecting us, right? That's what she basically said. Their sales, markets elsewhere are more attractive that the U.S. can be in the backburner a little bit. But I'm certain, right, we talked about those preparations are ongoing regardless of what tariffs are in place now.

Tu Le:
Without a question? There are some Chinese EV brands that I know that are talking to some states in the U.S. I think post January, February of 2025, we might even start hearing some announcements about partnerships. There was an article last week that CATL is talking to multiple OEMs, and it doesn't have to be the U.S. 3. It could be Volkswagen. It could be, cause Volkswagen has invested heavily in Gotion, but maybe they need a second source. Maybe it's the Koreans that want to build in the United States. So, lots of moving parts.

Lei Xing:
The other detail of that announcement, I thought was interesting, was the 7.5% going up to 25% on the EV batteries, the non-EV batteries, but that doesn't, I mean that is not the intended, if you are trying to cut China off that equation, that doesn't do anything. Because if we were just talking about batteries, then I mean more often than not these other, the LGs, the Panasonics, have their cut China off their supply chain? And the battery supply chain. I don't think so. So the battery tariff hike itself, it does nothing to really cancel or erase China off of that chain, right?

Tu Le:
And if we're looking at it from a competitive standpoint, it could give the U.S. 3 a false sense of security. They could end up building terrific vehicles for a longer period of time and lose focus on the clean energy side so that although in the U.S. they make great ICEs, they're not very competitive anywhere else in the world with their products.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, that's exactly kind of what I told BBC on that little interview I did a few days ago, and like the question came up, are the EVs made in China better than those in the U.S., I kind of laughed. And I wish I had said more yeses. I said four yeses. It's like, is that even a question? I mean right, you and I just, one model that Xpeng G9 was already great as an EV for a long trip that we did. And that's among the hundreds on offer in the market.

Tu Le:
Just to be clear, I'm not getting paid by any of these Chinese EV brands to do any marketing or any influencing. 

Lei Xing:
No.

Tu Le:
And it pains me to say these things. Sometimes I want to give credit where credit is due and right now, all the credit goes to China EV Inc. There's, every product that I’ve sat in, driven, ridden in been driven by, cause I think it's important for us Lei to specify that we've been driven by Level 4 robotaxis. Level 2+ robots or Level 2+ intelligent driving system, semi-autonomous. I can't tell you off the top of my head, one vehicle that I've gotten in the three weeks or even the last 18 months in China that I could say definitively, this is a piece of shit. I haven't gotten in a lot of the lower price that are popular in tier-two cities, but most of those cars aren't going to make it to the United States anyways. So.

Lei Xing:
At least not yet, what is the intent? The intent is one is to, same for the EU what they've been talking about, right? The injury, right? They're using this word called injury to the domestic industry. And protect, let's say, in the U.S. the Big 3. But the interesting thing is you have one of the Big 3 or one of or half of the Big 3. The Stellantis shipping LeapMotor EVs, utilizing their global channels, except the U.S. obviously, those two things are going on the same time, which is right, it's interesting. I mean protecting the protection is not going to give an edge to the U.S. automakers or not cause injuries.

Tu Le:
Within the next 3 years, 4 years. If I'm being conservative, there's going to be Chinese IP in U.S.-made Stelantis vehicles and European-made Stellantis vehicles full stop within 3 or 4 years. And the reason I say 3 or 4 years is because I don't know how fast Stellantis can incorporate LeapMotor’s IP. That's the bottleneck. But with regards to the Shark, because there was another brand and product unveil this week that we'll talk about. The Shark is actually a hybrid. It's actually not super cheap. It's $53,000. And I believe they plan on manufacturing it in Mexico whenever that plant comes online. And they're going after if for those listeners who have been to Southeast Asia and Latin America, they're going after the Toyotas and the Nissans and the Hondas. For Toyota, I think a popular truck is the Hilux. It's kind of like a Ranger size a little bigger than a Ranger.

Lei Xing:
Same thing, Ford Ranger.

Tu Le:
Colorado, Chevy Colorado.

Lei Xing:
Colorado. Yeap. Chevy Colorado.

Tu Le:
It's a hybrid. And $53,000 is actually pretty high priced for Mexico. I don't know how many they plan on selling, at least initially, I think it's more or less their initial bid not only on a price, but on a product.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, I joked that this is the only car where you can tow a trailer and karaoke at the same time.

Tu Le:
It's full steam ahead for China EV Inc. BYD launched a vehicle, a global product debut. I think this is the first time ever for BYD outside of China if I'm not mistaken. And the other piece that we kind of alluded to it last week was the ONVO unveil and brand launch. A few of our friends got to attend. Unfortunately, you were busy. So you didn't get to go to that in Shanghai.

Lei Xing:
I missed it because I was on that trip, but I was following it. We can talk a little bit about it.

Tu Le:
It's targeting the Model Y, it's RMB30,000 less. It uses 900V architecture for fast charging. Currently, the Model Y and all NIO vehicles use 400V. So it's the next technology, new platform, new NIO platform. And it's swappable, all the characteristics that would beat a Model Y. 

Lei Xing:
Well, they had that slogan on the back of that camouflage vehicle, “Bi Model Y Bang” remember that, right? We talked about that many episodes ago. Here's my, the key words that I would people probably when you think of ONVO, at least that's what they tried to stress at the press conference, at the announcement. Here's a few key words I took away: family obviously, right, if you look at the press conference, all the people that were in the audience, they had kids, small kids sitting with them, right? Family number one. Space, because of design because of this new architecture. Efficiency that one number they talked about was 12.1 kWh/100 km. And for reference, this is the target of the Mercedes CLA next generation platform that they're launching and producing in China next year. So NIO has beaten Mercedes to the punch on that front. Safety, they talked a lot about safety. And then at the end of the day, affordability, right? The starting price was RMB219 900. NIO, finally, the simple way to see this is we finally have a cheaper NIO, basically. But at the same time calling it a mass market brand will be a misnomer, because it's not. We have talked about a couple of episodes ago. So the goal that the definition of premium or mass market is completely blurred in China. So this is not a mass market brand, but it's just a cheaper segmented NIO, but using a new brand to kind of augment it. One number I wanted to share, this is family market, car market, the definition is basically the buyers are married, rather than the buyers are single. This segment is the largest in China, and I think last year was just under 17 million. It's like three-quarters of the market. So think about the TAM right, that NIO is trying to address. It's, I don't know, 10, 15 times the market they're currently in, the RMB300,000 and above. The last thing I'll say was, they compared it to the RAV4 and the Model Y being the best-selling vehicle of any kind globally. The interesting thing I thought of was, China does not have a model that does that, you wonder, would there ever be a model from China that's number one selling model globally? I'm not sure ONVO’s the one to do it. I'm not sure even BYD is the one to do it, right? Those are the things you kind of think because…

Tu Le:
I think if BYD was to do, it would be the Atto 3. But…

Lei Xing:
BYD has 50, 60 models across their what, four brands. That's the thing kind of right? We cause they often compare their products to these incumbents, RAV4 and the Model Y but like in China, it's just these bunch of thousands of models competing for, right, for the pie. But we don't yet see a China Model Y or China RAV4. I think that's the interesting.

Tu Le:
There's no clear-cut leader outside of BYD and within BYD’s product portfolio, there's just a bunch of products that are as a whole really push the volume. But there's, I guess the Seal would be the big runner in China.

Lei Xing:
No, it's the Song, it's the song like it's, though Seal is not even like up there in terms of the rankings. I think that's something maybe where I'm pointing to. The if I'm being negative a little bit, that the China competition, it's always if you can't do it, you launch a new product into the market and hope that it drives volume.

Tu Le:
I just don't know, just kind of thinking about this, taking a step back is it just seems like it's just not sustainable. And we haven't talked about the G6, but the L60 is also going to compete directly against the G6. So.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, and also thinking back to when NIO launch, the NIO Day in 2017 versus let's say the almost day this year we almost standing not only on the shoulders of the RAV4 and the Model Y but it's also standing on the shoulders of itself that itself meaning NIO with their current swapping network, right? Which ONVO can utilize and the tactic of using this guy, Ai Tiecheng, who is an original ES8 owner, but he’s really come from outside the car industry, right? With Disney World.

Tu Le:
And I think that's ok, I think that's okay. But it will be interesting to see if NIO can really separate the ONVO brand when they're going to be sharing swapping stations and they are going to get aggressive. There's going to be what, a 1,000 more swapping stations or something else. And then 100 stores by the end of this year for ONVO.

Lei Xing:
I think that's fine and also that the ONVO owners cannot use NIO Houses only by NIO owners who invite them into it, they can do it, but ONVO users themselves they cannot, I mean they can go into the NIO Houses, but they can't use the services, right? Unless they're accompanied by NIO owners. So that's one thing.

Tu Le:
The other important thing is that Li Bin said that 20,000 makes them profitable a month. So.

Lei Xing:
Lofty, lofty expectations for the ONVO again, right? And then MONA will launch next month, probably lofty lofty expectations, just because now they're in that price range, where it’s not only the most competitive, but it's also most expected to have the most volumes.

Tu Le:
Sure, that because MONA is going to be mass market.

Lei Xing:
And Xiaomi, right, they just delivered the 10,000th SU7. You wonder how fast ONVO or whether they can get to the level of Xiaomi, right? Xiaomi is the new benchmark. 

Tu Le:
Well, now that ONVO, it got a ton of western attention. I know that. But other Chinese EV brands are going to be gunning for it now. So I think that they don't look at the Model Y as on top of the mountain anymore. It's a sale. It's still sells significantly each month. But from a feature standpoint, from a pricing standpoint, it's not, it's not super competitive to what's already out there. And so how long can Tesla hold out on the SUV, crossover side? Because the Model 3 is already kind of lost its team substantially, especially now that the SU7’s out and a few other sedans which is doing pretty well.

Lei Xing:
Which is the reason why they announced this new zero zero incentive just what two days ago.

Tu Le:
So the other thing that I want to make sure that I didn't mention this during the tariff conversation, but this whole talk of subsidies, it's important to remember that Tesla received a lot of help from the State of California. And even OEMs buying credits from them. And the factory that they got in Fremont for pennies on the dollar. So they've gotten help in the United States. They've gotten help in China subsidies, billions of dollars of subsidies. When we talk about Chinese brands, being subsidized and fairly, we also have to point to Tesla getting to where they are because early on they were subsidized. So this is not a China phenomenon. And remember, GM was and Stellantis were bailed out by U.S.. Okay, so always remember that in the back of your mind, because it's not about fair competition. The countries will allow that, right?

Lei Xing:
So that I mean there's no fair competition, right, if we're being honest. I mean we can go all the way back to the joint ventures, right? We talk about that. Is that fair, right? There's always some form of protection or to do business, but right, then you think about these things that you just talked about, then you wonder if there are a double standard, there probably is also in China.

Tu Le:
But the one thing I, that I also wanted to note Lei is that the Chinese government does not want foreign brands to be gone from the passenger vehicle market. That's not their goal. It would make them look business unfriendly, foreign business unfriendly. So I don't know what the magic number is from a percentage standpoint, but they need Volkswagen, GM to, and Toyota to, at least be players in the space, even if they're weak.

Lei Xing:
Yeah at the end of the day it’s just going to be whoever comes out of the bloodbath unscathed, right? That's the game for now. No one is going to, China is not going to push you out, but what Tesla has been doing with some of the conditions of some of the U.S. brands we know they're under stress. So it wouldn't be surprising to see some additional ones get cooked, as someone said, recently in the article, right?

Tu Le:
And let's be clear, Volkswagen and GM, Toyota to a lesser extent. And I don't feel that they, I haven't spoken to anyone about Toyota, but GM and Volkswagen in China are completely in survival mode. Again, trying to find that bottom.

Lei Xing:
Volkswagen slightly being better, because they are putting on an offensive where GM is kind of still lost.

Tu Le:
I think they have three new products. I think. I think that's more than Volkswagen.

Lei Xing:
But we're not seeing GM, look at what are we going to do, 2026, two years from now, five years from now. We do have that in Volkswagen. They have a plan, but GM does not. They have the products, they launched it.

Tu Le:
But Lei, they have a plan, but CARIAD freaking, blew up again. So I like, to me, Volkswagen is mush, complete mush. They can't believe anything they say. Cause at least Mary is not freaking popping off at the mouth. Saying we're going to do this, we're going to do that, right?

Lei Xing:
Like what I’m saying is if you ask me to bet which Volkswagen or GM who will be the likely more successful going forward or survival, I picked Volkswagen, right? That's what I'm saying. 

Tu Le:
But yeah, but I don't know if they're going to be able to like reignite old glory, their past glory, and the bottom line is as well Lei, if you're Blume, who do you save, Porsche or Volkswagen brand in the China market? Because you probably can't save both.

Lei Xing:
Yeah. I don’t’ know. Volkswagen would, if it was me, I'd probably say Volkswagen, I don't know.

Tu Le:
It's a hard question because Porsche is the profit driver for Volkswagen Group.

Lei Xing:
That's true.

Tu Le:
But the Volkswagen brand creates flexibility because of the volume. These are real questions that the management teams and the boards are dealing with right now. And if I were GM, if I were Ford, I'd look at, and Mercedes, I'd look at Toyota, partnering with BYD, I'd look at Stellantis partnering with LeapMotor and Volkswagen partnering with Xpeng. I’d look at the mirror and say, if I really want to be a player in China, I might have to partner and who am I kicking the tires on? Cause HiPhi, they obviously don't have any significant IP or a manufacturing presence or like any anything that. Because if they, excuse me, if they did, then somebody would have picked them up already. So that's the most interesting thing, right, Lei? It's like one thing that we should mention as well is that FAW has also signed up now with NIO on battery swapping.

Lei Xing:
Was that official announced or was that rumored?

Tu Le:
I think it's official.

Lei Xing:
It’s not yet officially announced, but it's coming I guess, that's the…

Tu Le:
Forthcoming. And who is FAW, who’s one of FAW’s joint venture partners? Volkswagen. So. So there's going to be more speculation about Volkswagen kicking the tires on battery swapping, at least for the China market. So.

Lei Xing:
The interesting thing is, so GAC has signed deal with NIO and a couple few days later, just last week, this earlier this week. GAC I think specifically the AION brand has also signed a deal with CATL on their battery swapping ecosystem. It's really getting interesting. I think the NIO one is with Hyper. There's these details of how they're different. But…

Tu Le:
We can put to bed battery swapping is not a thing in China. Battery swapping is going to be a thing in China.

Lei Xing:
Yeah I must mention this. So speaking of battery swapping, the perspective I had was on our road trip, we saw a few NIO battery swapping stations. And this time I took the investors to that, one that I said on twitter was a jackpot. All of this time, I'm also going to on the road in other places. Whenever I saw a battery, NIO battery swapping station, it wasn't idle. I mean there was a NIO doing the battery swapping, which was the interesting thing that tells me that they're happening is they're not just there for being there. If every time I visited, I could see a NIO doing the battery swapping then, right?

Tu Le:
So utilization is high.

Lei Xing:
So I think the number I've heard was they're doing, I visited F2, right? As part of that trip. They did a talk, this a young guy. I think he said 80,000 per day right now being added to that number. So it's like, I don't know, close to 45 million now, total swaps. So I mean that's happening, right? And not even counting the other ones that EVOGO, right? The Hyper has one, Geely has one.

Tu Le:
And honestly, it sounds like the Chinese government told the SOEs to get in line, fall in line. So cause outside of Geely, they are all SOEs.

Lei Xing:
So it would be interesting to see going forward. We see the BYD taxis charging on the ZEEKR chargers. It'll be interesting to see the Geelys and the GAC Hyper swapping at the NIO swapping stations.

Tu Le:
The last thing I want to talk about Lei is Baidu had an event in Wuhan unveiling the production version of the RT6. RT stands for robotaxi, six is the 6th generation. They had unveiled it last year around this time, and said that it was going to be a RMB240,000 cost.

Lei Xing:
I think it was 2 years ago, 2022, but now they finally put it into onto the road.

Tu Le:
I guess. There will be 1,000 of them at the end, by the end of this year in Wuhan. The cost now has gone down to RMB200,000.

Lei Xing:
They actually showed the invoice.

Tu Le:
Yeah Fapiao, I saw that. So this is China. We see Cruise, we see the ZEEKR Waymo robotaxi. Those aren't likely at a RMB200,000 price point, but they can't be that far off.

Lei Xing:
And then now just yesterday WeRide, Pony, and I'm not sure maybe Baidu also maybe it's forthcoming. They just got the permit to, I think to test the robotaxis from the Beijing South Railway Station now. That is in the city center. It's not in Yizhuang anymore.

Tu Le:
So the Beijing South Station is about an hour's drive to city center to CBD. Sorry.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, it's basically on the southern part of the Second Ring road between the Second, southern part of the Second Ring road and the Southern part of the Third Ring road, right? So these are progressing.

Tu Le:
Very close to Tian'anmen..

Lei Xing:
But again, the other thing to stress is that L4 is not making money, and that's why you see these WeRides, you see the previously DeepRoute, they're going to that Level 2+, which is.

Tu Le:
but Baidu said they’ll break even with Luobo in 2025.

Lei Xing:
Okay, I mean the few times we took a ride, they're still giving steep subsidies.

Tu Le:
So they ate a lot of that cost or price. So maybe they're forecasting a tremendous increase in volume on the number of rides. Then. So, man, that's all I had. I know you've been kind of running around. So that's all I had this week, man.

Lei Xing:
And then the last thing I'll just say, maybe a little bit of testimonial of my recent, this trip I took with a few investors to visit five cities in five days and eight companies. I think the only thing I mean it was very inspiring for me. It was not to see these gadgets, technology or the products it was really seeing of talking to the really the talent from these companies, whether it was at the CFO level, whether it was just at the engineering level. This is what makes China tick, right? Why they're ahead, why the EVs are. I think these talent behind these companies and many of them are very international, speak English, right? If you don't visit them, you don't know. And this is I mean talking to them was very inspirational for me. Although I knew these companies before, but having spoken to these people, right? It's you kind of get an understanding of why China's ahead on so many fronts. Then we visited BYD yesterday, and we've only scratched the surface of what we saw of what they can do.

Tu Le:
Yes, but BYD I think BYD is different. They're an overnight sensation that took 30 years, right?

Lei Xing:
Yeah, that's right. So and not every one of these companies is going to be stay successful, right? It would, some will be cooked as well. 

Tu Le:
But I think to be quite frankly, you have a much more positive view on LiDAR than I do. I think LiDAR is going to be commodity commodities very quickly. I think Hesai, RoboSense, these companies are going to go away or get acquired or.

Lei Xing:
I'm not as negative, but yeah, I mean we visited two LiDAR companies. I’ll just say this. One is certainly more, the difference was pretty clear of the company culture and the numbers they talked about. It's only different. And you kind of tell why one, at least right now is much ahead in terms of volumes and the other one. So.

Tu Le:
And remember that Luminar is getting rid of 10%.

Lei Xing:
Tesla bought some Luminar LiDARs.

Tu Le:
LiDARs, man, I mean but that's my point is not that they're not going to use LiDAR. My point is that it's going to be commoditized, so there's not going to be a ton of value add. And there's a high likelihood that it's going to get bifurcated. So they're going to get cut out of certain markets. There's a decent chance of that happening. I know that Hesai is suing the U.S. government right now for falsely claiming that they are supplying to the military or funded by the military or something like that. So.

Lei Xing:
Let's just say this. So the Xiaomi SU7 has the Hesai LiDAR. Their second or third model, have someone may have an LiDAR from someone else? So let's just say that.

Tu Le:
Yeah, no, I mean there's going to be survivors from the LiDAR space. I just don't know if they're all going to survive. And to your point, you said there's a clear leader or kind of like mature company. Hey, everyone, thanks for joining us. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. We will talk with you all next week. 

Tu Le:
That brings us to the end of this week show. Lei and I thank you for tuning in. My name is Tu Le and you can find me on twitter @sinoautoinsight. You can find Lei on twitter @leixing77. If you wouldn't mind rating and or reviewing us on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you grab your podcast from, we'd appreciate that as well. Even better if you enjoy this show, please tell your friends about it. Please join this again next week as we track down all the latest news on China EVs & More.