Episode #171 - Legacy Auto Needs a Hug, BYD Manufacturing Footprint expands, AV Companies - What's Next

Tu and Lei start out this podcast with a broad discussion about how virtually all the foreign legacy automakers are doing so poorly in China with Tu detailing Porsche's recent, severe challenges. 

Tu and Lei then move onto Xiaomi's production license despite the overcapacity in China. Tu briefly explains how this could happen. Tu and Lei take a few minutes to discuss how business has evolved in China the last several years and how China's maturity as an economy makes it tougher than before to get out of economic slumps. 

Tu switches gears to talk about BYD's manufacturing footprint including the newest announcement about building in Turkey. Tu talks about the strategic importance of location of Turkey relative to the European, Middle Eastern and African markets. 

The podcast ends with Tu and Lei talking about the latest goings on in the autonomous vehicle sector. Lei details his latest experience riding some robotaxis while in China and they both discuss the importance of having a clean record because of their desires to IPO in the near future. 

Transcript

CEM #171 Transcript
Recorded 7/12/24

Tu Le:
 Hi everyone and welcome to China EVs & More where my co-host Lei Xing and I will go over the week's most important and interesting news coming out of the global EV, AV and mobility sectors. What Lei and I discuss today is based on our opinions and should not be taken as investment advice. For those that are new to the show, welcome. And to our loyal listeners, welcome back. We ask that you help us please get the word out about this podcast to other enthusiasts and tune in again next week. 

My name is Tu Le. I'm the managing director at Sino Auto Insights, a global management consultancy that helps organizations bring innovative and tech-focused products and services to the transportation and mobility sectors. I write a free weekly newsletter that we pull many of our discussion topics from. You can sign up for it at sinoautoinsights.substack.com, which I encourage you all to do. A almost ready to go back to the United States Lei. Can you please introduce yourself.

Lei Xing:
Good morning to a just recently returned to the U.S. Tu and good morning from myself about to be returned to the U.S. Lei, live from Beijing. This is your co-host Lei Xing, former chief editor of China Auto Review, and this is episode #171. Porsche needs a hug. We start from there. We kind of talk about the uphill climb or maybe further decline of the foreign legacies. And this is everybody. I mean we've seen some horrendous numbers come out for June and the first half of the year. 

Tu Le:
And Lei, I think it's important to note that media is starting to pay attention, not only to Chinese exports, but to your point just now, how bad foreign legacies are doing in the China market. So there's this double whammy that media starting to really pick up on, western media I mean. So you're starting to see negative numbers in more mainstream news outlets that aren’t as focused on the China market. So it's becoming fairly well known about the downward spiral and the upward trajectory, the downward spiral of the legacy automakers and the upward trajectory of the Chinese EV makers.

Lei Xing:
And it's all in the backdrop of, I tweeted that we are nearing another tipping point, that tipping point being 50:50 NEVs vs. ICEs, we are almost about to pass that threshold, at least on a monthly basis. Right, in June, the CPCA numbers was 48.4% retail, percentage of vehicles sold, passenger vehicles sold that were NEVs. We are on a cusp, right? And while at the same time, you're seeing this Chinese brands accounting for roughly 60% of the passenger vehicle market. Before it was the other way around, right? It was 60% foreign brands. So two switches being flipped, right?

Tu Le:
And this along with the foreign automakers, collectively, now we're talking Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, in the United States, outselling the U.S., or not outselling, out producing and manufacturing the U.S. 3 in the U.S. market. So a lot of firsts are going on all over the world in the transportation space.

Lei Xing:
Yeah and GM and Stellantis getting that, what, grant?

Tu Le:
I think it's $1.7 billion.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, including some other companies. It’s just, I mean this downward spiral.

Tu Le:
Let's talk about a specific example. You had mentioned that Porsche needs a hug. So I'll start with a statistic, and then you continue about what's going on recently, because in 2023, Porsche sales globally increased by 3%. But in the China market, it actually decreased by 14 or 14.5% close to 15%. So Porsche entered the China market in 2001. A quick reminder, Porsche does not manufacture anywhere else in the world except for Europe, mostly in Germany. And so they export everything to the China market. 15% was the first sales decline ever for Porsche in the China market. And what happened this week Lei? How did their sales do for the first 6 months of 2024?

Lei Xing:
Down a third to less than 30,000 units in the first half. So, it is significant because Porsche was nearing about 100,000 units a year in China at the peak. I think that was 2022 or 21. So that's I mean if you look at all of the regions, China stood out, because it was the biggest fall, other regions are actually still growing, Europe, the U.S., right?

Tu Le:
So the funny thing is in the western media and western charts and financial statements, red numbers are bad, but in China, it's black numbers that are bad. Negative. That's kind of the weird thing.

Lei Xing:
Yeah green versus red. 

Tu Le:
Yeah exactly. I look at it Lei as, the Volkswagen Group management had anticipated sales to continue to decline, but I can't imagine that they thought it was going to be 33%.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, I think there are quite a few factors behind this. So if we trust what Porsche says in the official press release about the model change overs, which in fact are happening, number one, and then two, the Taycan demand falling, also, the Taycan itself is in a refresh. But I think the other important thing with respect to China is the realization of the sales and the market environment, I think, also because the dealer revolt that happened a few months ago, I think it's just a matter of pushing the inventory into the dealerships, I think that's probably stopped. Or I think they have entirely new expectation of sales. So this value over volume thing is, I don't know, just trying to be realistic with the market. I think they are, they'll be content I think even with the expectation, a little bit higher than what the actual situation is, I think they will be content with what has transpired. It's too bad. It's just.

Tu Le:
So really quickly to create more context and kind of a better understanding of how globe, or how Porsche performed globally. I think they were close to 360 or 370,000 units in 2023 for global sales, 150,000 of those units were Macans and Cayennes. So they're high runners, SUVs. And Macan EV was unveiled last year or earlier this year for the China market. But I've written in this week's newsletter that just 4 or 5 years ago, Porsche Cayenne and Macan didn't have a number of competitors that are currently in the market on the clean energy or EV, PHEV side. So what they're experiencing right now, even if we assume that the Taycan and the changeovers were partially to blame for some of the sales decline, it can't explain 15%, a -15% and a -33%. We have to look at the competition and the choices that are available to Chinese consumers. A couple, NIO, Li Auto, AVATR, Xpeng to a lesser extent, all these, Lotus, Volvo, Polestar. You name it, man.

Lei Xing:
I tweeted out the ZEEKR’s first proper SUV SUV the 7X is a blank. I was trying to say it's a Macan killer, one of the Macan killers, at least. 

Tu Le:
One of. One of. Because if you squint, they all have the same silhouette. Because to me that ZEEKR 007 looks a little bit like a G6, an Xpeng G6.

Lei Xing:
Right, this is the premium. And then we talk about, I also tweeted about Chevrolet being done, because Skoda and Chevrolet I think are two brands that are about to have their judgment day in China. I think Skoda already did it because recently I think it was hinted that they're, all of their distribution is now integrated into the Volkswagen dealers, right? So there are no, right? That's one sign. And then Chevrolet, right? I mean selling 10,000, less than 10,000 units in a quarter is. I don't know what the word to use, is ugly. It's.

Tu Le:
And they are, I don't know how many…

Lei Xing:
It's embarrassing.

Tu Le:
I'll find this out for next week, but I don't know how many dealers there are, but it is not something that it, it should be very concerning in Detroit. Let's just say that. The one silver lining because you had tweeted about the Chevrolet sales earlier this week I retweeted it with a few of my own comments. The one silver lining is potentially the PHEVs that were launched or unveiled at the Beijing Auto Show that Chevy had shown. But.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, I don't know, man.

Tu Le:
They're definitely not going to be the savior for Chevrolet. What we've said in past episodes is that Cadillac is now Buick, Buick is now Chevrolet, Chevrolet is in no man's land, because…

Lei Xing:
It is irrelevant. Right? So.

Tu Le:
They play in the RMB200,000-RMB300,000 price point where every single, what it seems like, every single Chinese EV brand lives, the number of options that you have if you're able to pay RMB300,000 for a passenger vehicle in China is in the dozens.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, and then the Japanese are, they're all down. I haven't seen the Korean brand numbers. Probably the same. 

Tu Le:
ABB is down. 

Lei Xing:
The beamers, the Mercs, I mean still on a 700,000-unit a year trajectory, but I think among the ABBs, from what I’m hearing locally is that the price cuts on the Merc side is a little bit less than what's happening at the BMW and Audi side. 

Tu Le:
I heard the same thing.

Lei Xing:
While trying to maintain that kind of premium value, or, but it’s…

Tu Le:
It should be noted that Mercedes and Audi, the lion’s share of their sales is still ICE. BMW’s EV sales are growing in the China market, but only after fairly significant price cuts.

Lei Xing:
All of their EVs are, there's significant discounts. Maybe half off, in some instances at the dealer.

Tu Le:
If we think about that Lei, if something used to cost $10, and people bought a lot of them and now you can't barely sell them for $5 and we're talking premium. Okay. Yeah, we should also point back to the tweet that you had talked about, the Audi factory, the first one in Europe.

Lei Xing:
Brussels, yeah. 

Tu Le:
That builds the Audi e-tron, the Q8.

Lei Xing:
The OG, the original…

Tu Le:
Is looking at closing. So that's how significant the lack of demand, the challenges that are created when the demand, the lack of demand is sustained through several quarters. Normally, in a capitalistic market, but because we're in China, there's SOEs involved, the companies that we think should be going away have not yet.

Lei Xing:
Speaking of, right? These are the dynamics that Xiaomi just recently getting, yesterday, getting their MIIT production license. I tweeted that someone worked the magic because no one has gotten the license this fast, 3.5 years after Xiaomi announced the EV entry. While at the same time, China is trying to control production licenses. So you wonder somebody getting a favor or, so these are still happening and we talk about consolidation and how long it takes at the national level, at the regional level, at the provincial level, local level, right? There's so many interests involved.

Tu Le:
And there's this, there's this dichotomy, the central government wants to limit manufacturing licenses, but at the provincial level, it they want more manufacturing licenses because it normally means more jobs. Now they have to pick and choose who they want to back. And it's with the current track record of the Xiaomi SU7, it looks like giving them a manufacturing license will actually pay off. So I think that's also, was maybe a factor, the sustained demand of the SU7 kind of proved out a bit of Xiaomi’s potential longevity.

Lei Xing:
And they're also building a second plant right next door.

Tu Le:
And that's the crazy part Lei because you and I know, at least on the ICE side, there's a lot of overcapacity in China, and they're not going to get the types of incentives and they as in EV startups and SOEs that want to build new EV brands they're not going to get the bang for their buck if they try to convert ICE factories into EV factories, they get the significant tax cuts and subsidies if they build new. And so, but that exacerbates the overcapacity issue.

Lei Xing:
And speaking of bang for the buck, the bigger background is the current economic situation in China and this trip coming back, I said myself being local and kind of observing what's happening, this bang for the buck is happening in every industry imaginable. I tweeted that the China burger in that burger group of, this is happening in the food industry, in the EV industry and let's see in the malls. There's a bunch of these new, let's say the coffee shops, tea shops opening up, my wife was just talking about cosmetics, that people are willing to pay a little bit less for cosmetics than the brand names, right? These are things going on about kind of the consumption downgrade. It is true, it is happening. And so that combined with I guess the new generation consumers, they don't have this brand loyalty. Let's say as my wife, my wife grew up in the 80s 90s crazy for McDonald's when they were first opened in Beijing, right? The new generation, let's say my daughter's age, they don't have that.

Tu Le:
What's really important to also kind of explain is that 10 years ago in 2008 and 2009 during the financial crisis, what the United States and China did was they created policies to invest further into infrastructure and the bridges and things like that. But and I think some policy or economists are looking at China, the Chinese government to do something similar, but the denominator is much larger now, meaning that the Chinese economy is much larger. So the same amount of investment, which in 2008 and 2009, was very significant, I want to say it was close to $1 trillion or something like that. But so the same amount of investment that they had in 2008 2009 would not have the same effect if they invested that same amount today, because the denominator is bigger, the economy is larger. So in in the same vein, if the economy is slower, it's going to take a lot more effort to get it back to the growth rate over 5%. I actually think that the days of 5-6% are probably over, most countries would still die to have a 4 or 5 % growth rate. But for the Chinese economy, it means that things aren't as active and growing as you're pointing out too with this downgrading.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, I saw, and I also do see a trend if you look at the CAAM numbers of the share of exports in the NEVs, the growth I think is slowing down while domestically China is pushing very much on that cash for clunkers program, there is over RMB10 billion put into it at the national and the regional level. If you're trade in or scrap your old vehicle, you automatically get RMB10,000 toward a purchase.

Tu Le:
Because they want to keep these factories running.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, so that's pretty serious. If you look at in Beijing this construction project, Jingmi Lu, there's this high, right, elevated highway being built, right on Jingmi Lu. These are the investment into infrastructure, still happening.

Tu Le:
But again, in 2009, it might have taken 10,000 of these investments, and I’m making that number up, I have no idea if it's accurate or not. It might have taken 10,000 to stimulate the economy. But now we would take a lot more than 10,000 of these projects. So.

Lei Xing:
And everyone's looking toward, forward to next week's plenary session starts on Monday.

Tu Le:
I know we do this every year, but can you explain to folks what the Third Plenum is?

Lei Xing:
It's basically kind of they give out direction or where in terms of economically, some of the directions of what, let's say everybody's expecting some kind of a major stimulus, right, let’s just say that, to come out and it's mid-year, right? Given the kind of economic pressure. And everybody's saying, what's China's going to do?

Tu Le:
So Lei, let's shift gears. BYD is investing.

Lei Xing:
I know you had said about BYD everywhere, but I don't know if you want to go there, but.

Tu Le:
So, there was an announcement that BYD is going to invest $1 billion in Turkey.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, Turkey, I mean come on, like Turkey announced the tariffs like the 40% tariff on every kind of vehicle from China. And then after this, I think they scrapped it or something.

Tu Le:
Yeah. So well. I mean it's not just the number of countries that BYD is going to be manufacturing. Let's look at, so they're in Thailand, Brazil, Hungary, Turkey, Mexico, Turkey, but there's a reason that I think it's significant that they chose Turkey, because if you look on a map, Turkey is kind of equidistant. I won't say equidistant, it is probably not the right word. I would say it's central to Europe, central to Africa, central to the Middle East, and some of the other Asian countries. And so it creates a lot of flexibility from a manufacturing standpoint. In case Africa increases demand or the Middle East increases demand. Now they can shift some of that, and they don't have to ship it on a boat. It's much easier and if not announced, they go to the EU, so this particular factory, I think, stands out to me, because it seemed much more strategic, not only because Turkey announced tariffs, but because it looks like it could supply a lot of different countries from that Turkey factory. So I wouldn't be surprised if they put a battery factory right next to this assembly plant in Turkey, because $1 billion is pretty significant investment.

Lei Xing:
So geographically speaking, is probably the most strategic, maybe next Mexico, of where the plant is being built.

Tu Le:
In Mexico, I would expect that for the first several years, plug-in hybrids are probably going to be the dominant product that's going to be manufactured unless they decide to shift to supply into the United States. And then I could see battery electric vehicles being a decent amount of their manufacturing. But for Turkey, it just makes a ton of sense if you look at it on a map for those that aren't great in world geography, because I wasn’t, I needed to look on a map. It sticks out to you that it's, Turkey’s in the middle of all these different regions.

Lei Xing:
It's like the middle of all the continents. Basically Europe, Asia and Africa.

Tu Le:
One of our friends, Steven Dyer, he works for AlixPartners. They had done a brief and said that of the 137 brands that are currently selling in the China market, only 19 will be profitable by the end of the decade.

Lei Xing:
2030, was it? 

Tu Le:
Yeah 2030. So that sounds like a lot to me, but I thought it might be even less. But so, I just wanted to throw out that statistic because people are always kind of wondering, I think they have no idea, but according to AlixPartners there is currently 137 brands, and so I think the implication that that these statistics are this prediction of 19 being profitable also implies that there won't be 137 by the end of the decade.

Lei Xing:
Well 19 being profitable, doesn't mean that there will only be 19 brands left. As we talked about the slow consolidation happening.

Tu Le:
And it doesn't have to be consolidation. We can just look at Stellantis and Volkswagen as cash infusions and licensing IP. So strategic partnerships, I think, are also going to be a way to go. If you're a foreign legacy looking to find a Chinese strategic partner, I would rather pick one sooner than later, because it's not going to be the prettiest girl towards the end of the dance, it’s going to be the leftover EV companies that probably aren't as attractive. So I think that's why Volkswagen Stellantis were quick to pick the two partners that they did. So man, do you have anything else that you want to talk about?

Lei Xing:
I don't know. You want to talk about a little bit about the robotaxi headlines?

Tu Le
Yeah why don't you, what happened with Baidu?

Lei Xing:
There’s been…What happened with Baidu is, so there's been a few incidents or accidents, not to the Baidu’s fault, but it shows kind of how far we're still away from that utopia. First of all, AVs are safe, first of all, first of all, they abide by traffic rules, right? 60 km/h. It'll go at 60 km/h. So there's been a few incidents that have become viral on Chinese social media. Part of it becoming viral is because of these headlines saying the AVs are taking over the jobs of taxi drivers. And misinformation, miss-informed headlines saying that there's 1,000 robotaxis in Wuhan, the 45% of all ride-hailing are these AVs? These are all wrong, wrong takes. And I think the bottom why this becoming viral is not many people talk about this is actually the poor, the really traffic management in Wuhan. That's what the local citizens are complaining. Now the robotaxis when they are stuck on the road and they cause traffic, it's everything I think is blown out of proportion. So that's why it's been becoming viral.

Tu Le:
So we should note the Lei that there, I think it was almost too sterile. There was no reporting of any accidents by robotaxis, and we know that not to be true. The more robotaxis are on the road. There could be minor accidents and they and they should be reported. But I think the reason, the other reason it sticks out is because there's just been this lack of transparency on some of that stuff before. So.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, and I have, my personal view is this. I've recently done the, I tweeted that I've done the Yizhuang Daxing Airport rides on all three platforms, Baidu, WeRide and Pony. Comfort or whatever aside, I think currently the AVs, they're still at a stage where everybody is competing to show the capabilities of the AVs being able to transport you with or without the safety drivers. The ability to transport you from point to point in a bigger area, bigger ODD, that's it, I think from a business model perspective, from being profitable perspective, from the perspective of AVs are taking over the jobs of the taxi drivers, cab drivers. It's still decades away, I believe.

Tu Le:
The other important thing that should be noted is that most of these AV companies in China aren't, haven’t IPOed so it's important that they try to stay squeaky clean in order to maximize or optimize these valuations when they do IPO. 

Lei Xing:
Yeah having said that, is Baidu, the Luobo Kuaipao, are they responsible? I think so in terms of the processes of what happens during certain, you know, it's not 100% everything goes smoothly, right? They should be a learning experience for them to be better process at that, taking care of these incidents or issues. But it's great to see this technology progress. But Baidu said in the Q1, I think cumulatively 6 million rides since like 2020. Some of the headlines said oh, over the last few months, Baidu has done like 5 million rides. 

Tu Le:
Yeah. And I think it is important Lei that we understand what these AV companies, how their reactions are going to be, what their responses are going to be, how transparent they're going to be when there is an accident, because we see in the U.S. market, at least in Tesla case, there seems to be a lack of transparency and understanding. Part of acceptance and awareness is really being able to admit wrongdoing and let the investigation take its course, so that needs to happen in China as well.

Lei Xing:
The thing is, if we compare the cruise accident where the car dragged the pedestrian for, I don't know how far, this accident with Baidu is because the scooter ran a red light. It's not Baidu’s fault. You compare and see what kind of consequences, and the consequence for Cruise is they've stopped everything. And it's not going to happen for Baidu certainly, that everything is stopped. 

Tu Le:
But there could be an argument made that that's part of an autonomous vehicle robotaxis remit is to be able to react and avoid

Lei Xing:
And avoid accidents.

Tu Le:
Period. Full stop. Not 90% avoid, not 95% avoid, but avoid all of them. And so this just goes back to, we know it's not something that's going to happen or it's not something that's around the corner robotaxis are going to be ubiquitous. There's going to be long tail for a lot of these use cases, now will certain use cases in certain areas in certain cities adopt robotxis sooner than others? They will. But a lot of times that's going to be certain test areas that are designated. Good, for instance, is Yizhuang in Beijing. So. Let me check my newsletter. You now you had ridden WeRide, you'd ridden Pony and anything worth mentioning?

Lei Xing:
We've done this in Yizhuang. We've done this in Shenzhen, fully driverless, right?

Tu Le:
But in your recent rides.

Lei Xing:
Those are with the safety drivers.

Tu Le:
Anything worth talking about?

Lei Xing:
I think it was interesting to compare a passenger sitting in the back seat, the comfort level, that's why I ranked Pony first, WeRide second and Baidu, surprisingly Baidu last in that metric, the comfortability, the jerkiness. Then the other one was very interesting is how the AVs go through the ETC lane. Baidu did pretty poor.

Tu Le:
Yeah I saw that.

Lei Xing:
The latest Pony, so four times, it was very smooth. And you think about it like, is it simple? Or is it difficult, that scenario of going through an ETC lane? Theoretically, it shouldn't be that difficult, right? Because you see that the bars come up and you should go, right? And then also going into the ETC lane, because you don't have the lane markings, decision to pick which lane to go, right? And knowing it's an ETC lane. 

Tu Le:
But to me Lei, to me that’s how the software is defined and how aggressive it's going to be. I think Baidu by nature maybe had it being very, very careful, whereas Pony probably said, you know what, just drive like you normally would, like a normal human would.

Lei Xing:
But at the same time, all of them strictly abide by the speed limits. That's not how a normal human driver drives. Sometimes we go a little bit over thinking it would be okay, if it's 60, I probably drive 70, but it's strictly under the speed limit. Sometimes that can cause congestion or cause traffic issues. Because let’s say you're in a lane. I think there was a video of a robotaxi. I think it was Baidu trying to merge into the right, but right is, the right lane’s packed with traffic, then it’s just stuck there, right? Causing traffic.

Tu Le:
So that's all I had Lei. I know there's a couple of people in the room, so I'll open it up to questions. If anyone has any questions. We'll give a few seconds for that. If not, unless you have anything else? 

Lei Xing:
No I'm good man. Now.

Tu Le:
Now when are you, so are you going to be in country in China watching the Euro Cup final, Euro 2024?

Lei Xing:
Yeah so it'll be 3 am on Monday morning and I leave Monday night. So I'll get in midnight Monday night U.S. time or Tuesday morning.

Tu Le:
You have some crazy transfers?

Lei Xing:
Now, it's JFK.

Tu Le:
Okay, that's good.

Lei Xing:
And I got to drive 3 hours back.

Tu Le:
Oh, that's right.

Lei Xing:
So I'll probably get in in the wee hours.

Tu Le:
Your wife is probably not that excited about going back.

Lei Xing:
No, not at all. So we don't want to leave. I don't want to leave.

Tu Le:
Man, but it's. I haven't heard you complain about how hot it has. Has it been really hot?

Lei Xing:
It's been hot, but it's been rainy yesterday. I guess the only other thing I want to mention maybe I had a few opportunities to check out the Qin L DM-i, I test drove the top version, which retails at RMB139,800. It's good. I mean it's not a Qin, the original Qin that I knew, the very first Qin that came out like, I don't know how many years ago. It's a great car, right, for that price range. And then I got to check out the ONVO. They had like two dozen fellows, quite a few of which are NIO owners. They're very enthusiastic, explaining to you what ONVO’s all about. Specs, design. And checked out that Hopson One, there is this, I tweeted a video of, I don't know two dozen brands basic on the same level. It's like a carousel, right? Carousel where there's five or six in that circle, brands in that circle and then three or four cars in each of the little pop-ups. And they are, it's difficult to see them as cars, more of electronic toys, as I twetted. When everything is put under one roof.

Tu Le:
It's hard to stand out. It's hard to stand out. 

Lei Xing:
And I saw the ID.UNYX, which is being launched next week, I think is probably in the RMB200,000 range, the Volkswagen Anhui Cupra Tavascan sister model. I don't know how it's going to do, but.

Tu Le:
Still a lot. So last night I had a little networking event for alumni, talked to a lot of Ford people. And so interesting to hear their perspectives on how the company is doing and not surprised that they have, they understand what's going on in China, but not really. But anyway, hey everyone. Thanks for listening. Good morning. Good afternoon, good evening. Apologies for the mishap this morning. 

Lei Xing:
Yeah, so I mean that this is like the first technical issue that we had that we had to…

Tu Le:
Yeah that's a good streak that's over 3 years, right? So.

Lei Xing:
170 some episodes or something. 

Tu Le:
So anyways, everyone, thanks for joining us and we will talk with you all next week.

Lei Xing:
Yeah, same here. Bye bye.

Tu Le:
That brings us to the end of this week show. Lei and I thank you for tuning in. My name is Tu Le and you can find me on twitter @sinoautoinsight. You can find Lei on twitter @leixing77. If you wouldn't mind rating and or reviewing us on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you grab your podcast from, we'd appreciate that as well. Even better if you enjoy this show, please tell your friends about it. Please join this again next week as we track down all the latest news on China EVs & More.