The Next Automotive Era: EVs, Robotaxis & Why Legacy Auto Needs China Now | China EVs & More Ep. 247

Back from China, Tu Le and Lei Xing unpack one of the most consequential shifts happening in the global automotive industry: the technology relationship between China and Western automakers has completely flipped.  

What began decades ago as Western companies bringing technology into China has become something very different. Today, automakers including Volkswagen, Stellantis, Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Nissan and others are increasingly relying on Chinese batteries, software, ADAS systems, LiDAR suppliers, and EV platforms to remain competitive.

In this episode, Tu and Lei discuss:

• Why Ford, GM, Volkswagen and Stellantis increasingly need Chinese technology
• The growing influence of XPeng, BYD, CATL, Huawei, Momenta, Hesai and Horizon Robotics
• Waymo’s rapid expansion and why autonomous driving is becoming impossible to ignore
• The reality of FSD versus China’s rapidly improving intelligent driving systems
• The implications of the Trump-Xi summit for the automotive sector
• Canada’s evolving strategy toward Chinese EV imports
• What the Beijing Auto Show revealed about the future of the industry
• Why the next battle is no longer about EVs — it’s about software, AI and autonomy

The conversation also explores whether legacy automakers risk becoming hardware manufacturers while Chinese companies increasingly control the technology stack powering the future of mobility. 

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🔑 SEO Keywords

China EVs, China EVs and More, Ford China strategy, Volkswagen China partnership, XPeng VLA, Tesla FSD, Waymo expansion, robotaxi industry, autonomous driving, BYD battery technology, CATL batteries, Huawei ADS, Momenta ADAS, Hesai LiDAR, Horizon Robotics, China EV technology, Chinese automakers global expansion, Trump Xi summit, Canada Chinese EVs, future of mobility, Tu Le, Lei Xing, Sino Auto Insights

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⏱️ YouTube Chapter Timestamps

00:00 The New World Order in Auto
02:00 Trump-Xi Summit and Industry Implications
05:00 Why China Now Exports Technology
09:00 Ford, GM, Volkswagen and China’s Growing Influence
13:00 XPeng, Huawei, Momenta and China’s ADAS Race
17:00 Tesla FSD vs China’s Intelligent Driving Systems
22:00 Why Lei Thinks WeRide Is Closest to FSD
27:00 Waymo’s Expansion and Robotaxi Reality
31:00 What Tu Saw in San Francisco
35:00 Canada’s Chinese EV Strategy
38:00 Why Europe Is Embracing Chinese Technology
41:00 Beijing Auto Show Reflections
44:00 What Comes Next for Global Automakers
47:00 Final Thoughts

Transcript

Tu Le (00:00)
 Hi everyone and welcome to China EVs and more where my co-host Lei Xing and I will go over the week's most important and interesting news coming out of the global EV, AV and mobility sectors. What Lei and I discuss today is based on our opinions and should not be taken as investment advice. Those that are new to the show, welcome. And to our loyal listeners and viewers, welcome back. Word is getting out about this podcast, so keep spreading the word and help us. And of course, tune in again next week.
 
 My name is Tu Le. I'm the Managing Director at Sino Auto Insights, a global management consultancy that helps organizations bring innovative and tech focused products and services to the transportation and mobility sectors. I write a free weekly newsletter that we pull many of our discussion topics from. You can sign up for it at sinoautoinsights.substack.com, which of course I encourage you all to do. A back in the USA Lei. Can you please introduce yourself?
 
 Lei Xing (00:52)
 Yes, good morning. This is your co-host, Xing, former chief editor of China Water Review and a home sweet home edition, I guess, and a long awaited episode number 247. Hard to believe it's been a month since we left for China. So the Beijing Water Show is in the rearview mirror. The Trump
 
 She's Summit is in the rear view mirror. And I think we're kind of back down to reality a little bit. It's nice to be back from the hustle and bustle and just constantly running around doing events.
 
 what a past month has been, right? It's like so many things happening, so many decisions being made recently by the big automakers and the Trump and Xi summit was, I think, most influential and consequential event. Although nothing was announced in the auto industry related, but
 
 nothing was really announced, but at least, you know, it's, as a Chinese American, yeah, as a Chinese American, I'm just happy to see that, that what is being portrayed at least on the surface, that, Trump was
 
 Tu Le (01:53)
 Well, nothing was really announced.
 
 Another few some trade stability, right?
 
 Lei Xing (02:13)
 kind of fell soft, he kind of fell soft in China, but that's probably by design. And yeah, but I mean, a lot of things are probably playing out behind the scenes when it comes to both ways, noticeably missing are GM and Ford CEOs in China,
 
 Elon Musk was there. And the other way around is what's been happening and potentially could happen. Canada, Mexico, US, a lot of hanging in the balance. Something we can look forward to before Xi comes and visits in September.
 
 So that's where we kind of begin. And I know you were in London. You're traveling around a bit. We can probably share some experiences over there.
 
 Tu Le (02:57)
 For all you Canadian viewers, I'm actually going to be in Montreal starting about 5 p.m. local time. yes, my wife, Annie, who you know very well, she hates, well, I won't say hates, but she doesn't like me much right now because.
 
 Lei Xing (03:03)
 Lucky you, lucky you. So you're to check out the Formula One? it? Oh, man.
 
 But Montreal
 
 is almost like your backyard, right? Almost?
 
 Tu Le (03:23)
 so it's a two hour flight, but so I was in San Francisco for three days, went back to Detroit for a week and then I was in China for two weeks and then went to London for a week and now I'm going to be gone to Montreal for five days. So my wife has a broken foot, so my sister is helping out a little bit and then I get back on Monday
 
 Lei Xing (03:31)
 China and then London.
 
 Okay, all right.
 
 Tu Le (03:48)
 I screwed up, didn't look at the calendar. I accepted this trip and I come back on Monday and I drive to Mackinac Island for the policy conference, which is the biggest event for politicians in Michigan of the year. So every, every governor candidate, every local representative is going to be there.
 
 Lei Xing (04:00)
 jeez.
 
 Full plate, full plate.
 
 Tu Le (04:12)
 to talk about how they're gonna transform the state of Michigan. So we're gonna do a little speaking event and it's a private session, so no media is gonna be involved, but you know, I am tied very closely to the state of Michigan. My family is here, I grew up here, and so it's good to know that
 
 at least some people in the state with some influence want to listen to what I have to say. But one thing that was funny is I'm pinging my Canadian friends and I'm like, what's to do in Montreal? I've been in Montreal, haven't been probably in 30, 40 years, 40 years probably. Great city from what I remember. But last night, the Montreal Canadiens won game seven.
 
 Lei Xing (04:43)
 I'd be busy.
 
 Wow.
 
 Tu Le (04:59)
 And so the city is on a high NHL, NHL. anyways.
 
 Lei Xing (04:59)
 Which means...
 
 You can
 
 slot one of the hockey games in, maybe.
 
 Tu Le (05:07)
 But let's do
 
 this, Lei. You were in China. So you weren't just in Beijing. You're in Shenzhen for May holiday. Then you spent a few extra days. And you were a busy beaver while you were still in China. So let's start with you talking about what you did. Because one of the surprising things that I saw was you have number one as the intelligent driving
 
 Lei Xing (05:10)
 Yeah. Yeah.
 
 Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (05:31)
 system was a big surprise to me. let's rewind to post Shenzhen or unless you did things during the week in Shenzhen.
 
 Lei Xing (05:41)
 No, I didn't do much. It was just resting with my parents. But post the Shenzhen before I left, I had a chance to... Actually, we were talking about this on the previous try of this episode, which kind of got cut short because of bad VPN. So I apologize for that. I shall figure it out. But...
 
 I had a WeRide WRD 3.0 vehicle on the GAC AION for a few days right before I left. it performed, my assessment was that it performed better than the Xpeng VLA 2.0, better than the Horizon HSD, closest to being FSD, but still a pretty good gap because
 
 I've been driving FSD the last few days back and it's awesome. I don't want to be a stan, but it is quite awesome. I am being stan. But I mean, I have that frame of reference. Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (06:31)
 You are being a stan.
 
 Well, so let me me qualify this.
 
 You had limited seat time in the VLA, so I think maybe having a bit more. Yeah, so.
 
 Lei Xing (06:47)
 the WeRide was on a GAC AION N60. The thing about it is here, that vehicle was recently launched at below 120,000 RMB with Hesai LiDAR standard with front heated ventilated massage seats.
 
 and with the fridge in the middle with leather seats with FSD like capability what more do you want and a spacious vehicle
 
 Tu Le (07:13)
 for less than 20,000 US dollars.
 
 Lei Xing (07:16)
 right around that range. mean, and they just had a recent test from these, one of these media outlets and two of their vehicles ranked number one and two in the ADAS testing. So that was pretty incredible, pretty incredible the capabilities of WRD.
 
 Compared to although the caveat is I had it for additional days Compared to the Xpeng and compared to the HSD. Yeah, that's that's all but it It was great, mean Yeah
 
 Tu Le (07:39)
 That's what I mean. That's all I mean.
 
 I think the biggest takeaway for me, Lei,
 
 is that we tried out multiple systems now in China from several different technology partners for these OEMs. And what we can say definitively is that the intelligent driving space in China is extremely robust. And when you compare that to the United States, where effectively there's FSD, Super Cruise, Blue Cruise,
 
 I find it difficult to find a fourth that you can say is even in the same orbit as the AION system that you just tried, the i6 system that we drove from Beijing to Shanghai for 1,200 kilometers, the XPeng VLA 2.0 system. All of these systems are from half a dozen automakers.
 
 This is also where we're extremely behind as in North America and Europe. And for the sake of simplicity, the Europeans wave the white flag and are just using, mostly are using Momenta to be quite frank. The Japanese are using Momenta Hyundai is, yeah. yeah, the Americans too, in GM at least.
 
 Lei Xing (08:51)
 Americans, yup. Same.
 
 Tu Le (08:58)
 we were offered next time we're both in town to try out a Cadillac. So we're going to hold my friend to that commitment. But Blue Cruise, because I have a Mustang Mach-E, and it is very, very limited.
 
 Lei Xing (08:59)
 that way.
 
 Tu Le (09:17)
 So, hey,
 
 Lei Xing (09:17)
 So at the same time, you look, Yep.
 
 Tu Le (09:23)
 No tech issue today.
 
 Lei Xing (09:24)
 Which is good. Yeah, it kind of sucks when, but nevertheless, no, I was going to say at the same time, so Elon Musk was in China with President Trump, Doing his memes But at the same time, I think all of these solutions in China, they have the understanding that FSD, the full blood version, as they say in Chinese, manxueban,
 
 which means that the full version is working on the approval at this point. And the latest rumors are that they're hiring additional people for the localization. And potentially we're looking at a late summer, early fall availability of that in China. Now, when that launches in China with the capabilities that these solutions already have,
 
 what happens. So I think these solutions, they understand why this is now so imbued. They are racing to put these on the vehicles to be incentivizing these customers. And all of them are, they're different, but their capabilities are compared to, you know, 2023 when we first went back and tried.
 
 some of these systems, they're a lot more advanced. And this is outside of Huawei and Momenta that I haven't tested. So there's at least a handful of solutions competing with FSD in China that are incredibly good.
 
 Tu Le (10:47)
 Yeah, and
 
 I have two years for my lease to end on the Ford. So I'm hoping that by the time that lease ends, I'll be able to find a robust Lucid, a robust Rivian, a robust... So I think Super Cruise is okay in the United States. I don't think it's still at the level of any of the Chinese that we've tried, but...
 
 I'm hoping in the next couple of years we'll see significant improvements and more competitors will throw their hats into the ring. if FSD is still far and above the best system, intelligent driving system in the United States in the next couple of years, I'll probably lean towards getting a Tesla. You heard it here today. So.
 
 Lei Xing (11:28)
 You, you, you are close to becoming a Tesla stan.
 
 Tu Le (11:31)
 No, well, I'm getting a little FOMO. I'm getting a little FOMO. So.
 
 Lei Xing (11:37)
 it is good. not being a stan it is good. It is the benchmark of all the solutions in China.
 
 Tu Le (11:45)
 the CEOs openly acknowledged that.
 
 Lei Xing (11:47)
 Yeah. speaking of this and then the kind of the I think we can touch upon the new world order a bit. The new world order in the Chinese and the Western auto industry. if it isn't clear by now. What Stellantis has announced recently, what Honda has announced recently.
 
 I think you pointed this out also in the newsletter that when we talked about market for technologies back in the 80s and 90s when foreign automakers setting up joint ventures in China, now in the 2020s, that market for technology is flipped. Where the Western automakers need the Chinese technologies in order to survive.
 
 in China and globally. So the latest example, case in point is Hussai announcing that they're the LIDAR supplier from Mercedes in China and Europe for their Level 3 capabilities. So I just wanted to touch upon that point.
 
 Tu Le (12:45)
 And let me lean into that Stellantis statement. They are going to be having investor day this week in Auburn Hills. So one of the keynotes that Kana had was with Antonio Filosa the CEO of Stellantis, global CEO. And he effectively punted on most of her questions.
 
 Lei Xing (12:52)
 We'll be closely watching that.
 
 Yeah, I saw that.
 
 Tu Le (13:08)
 you know, referring to answers during him giving answers during the investor day this week. Unfortunately, I'm going to be in Montreal, so I won't be able to attend investor day, I will be keenly listening in on what he has to say. do know that there are
 
 Lei Xing (13:27)
 have Gregoire Olivier who's in charge of the Asia Pacific and China region. There's a segment on him he'll talk about kind of their strategy in China a bit. yeah.
 
 Tu Le (13:37)
 And, and, but, remember they're going to be doing this in Auburn Hills, Michigan. So the last thing he's going to want to do is really focus in on how they're going to integrate LeapMotor what their strategy for partnering with them is either on the distribution side or IP sharing and licensing, but it's going to be pretty significant.
 
 You know, Reuters had that article a few weeks ago about, focusing on the four brands. think Peugeot Fiat was a Dodge or Ram and then one other. So I'm assuming that they're going to get more detail or give more bone or meat to those bones about that four brand strategy. But absent was LeapMotor
 
 Now, they own 20 % of fleet motor, so it's not insignificant. And I know that in Europe, they're much more open about it. So maybe we can transition to me talking about the Financial Times Future of the Car Summit. So CEO of Renault was there, CEO of Nissan, CEO of Volkswagen brand, global Thomas Schaeffer was there.
 
 the head of XPeng UK and Eastern Nerve was there, Elvis Chung. And he kind of dropped a couple of bombs during his keynote with, or fireside with Kana as well.
 
 Lei Xing (15:01)
 The four European OEMs brands you mentioned, Renault, Volkswagen, Stellantis, who else? One other.
 
 Tu Le (15:08)
 Volvo head was there.
 
 Lei Xing (15:11)
 of them, have different strategies with respect to the Chinese market. The ones that are not even producing takes China as an important role, at least in product development. In the case of Renault, They have the ACTC in Shanghai that's helping them develop products. So, Stellantis announcement with Opel, the upcoming C-SUV building on the LeapMotor
 
 platform is a good example. And the other interesting thing is the return of Jeep production in China after roughly 10 years or so. It's quite interesting. I don't see that going anywhere.
 
 But all of them, Volkswagen, not to mention what they're doing already in China, they have different roles of how these Chinese tech players or how China itself plays in their future success. And Stellantis, to be honest, think financially, given what they announced in first quarter, there seems to be an upswing.
 
 profitability. yeah, they're stable, which is good to see. And now they're pushing more on China. How do you utilize China and LeapMotor
 
 Tu Le (16:08)
 Well, I think they're stabilizing. I don't know if they're in the upscaling. I think they're stabilizing.
 
 But the biggest wild card currently lay is that the Iran war is pushing up gas prices, which should, you would think, hinder Ford sales, GM sales, Stellantis sales in North America. So we'll have to see over the next several months what sales are and or whether or not Ford, GM, Stellantis,
 
 puts money on the hood or incentives to sell the SUVs and the pickup trucks. But we're getting into the summertime. So for the next three months, we're probably not going to be able to glean too much out of anything unless there are huge incentives. Then it'll be pretty obvious that sales are slowing down. And I think we've seen the GM, was it GM or Stellantis that did offer some incentives?
 
 So there's some shoots.
 
 Lei Xing (17:01)
 I think Ford has
 
 the employee pricing,
 
 Tu Le (17:05)
 Hmm.
 
 And
 
 the other thing that looms large is, so the overall theme of...
 
 Lei Xing (17:11)
 I'm just glad I have
 
 an EV. I don't have to worry about gas prices.
 
 Tu Le (17:15)
 So,
 
 but the overall theme of the summit was we know China is going to come to compete really hard. We know that we see opportunities for cooperation and that's what we're going to do in those particular areas, whether it's technology sharing, distribution, manufacturing. Okay. So one of the things that
 
 I don't believe was approved by Xpeng PR was that Elvis effectively said Magna Steyr doesn't have enough capacity in their Graz Austria factory for their demand or what they forecast as their future demand. And I don't know if Magna Steyr knew he was going to say that because
 
 Lei Xing (17:57)
 Magna Steyr also produces for other brands, including AION, GAC AION. And I'm sure there will be a third and fourth and fifth Chinese automaker involved at some point. So from that perspective, if they think that they see Europe as a major battleground and volumes increasing, they got to think about and BYD, Stella, she kind of confirmed.
 
 Tu Le (18:02)
 Right.
 
 Lei Xing (18:19)
 they're looking at one of these Stellantis plants. Was it Stellantis? So she kind of confirmed that. These are all kind of on the table.
 
 Tu Le (18:23)
 Yeah, Stellantis Factory.
 
 And because we're in the UK, there's the Sunderland Nissan factory and there's a JLR factory in the UK as well that is looking to get sold to a Chinese automaker. And what was refreshing about the summit of this conference was that when you're in Europe, the Germans tend to suck the air out of the room in these conferences, but it was a distinctly European
 
 with some weight on the UK because the UK is not an insignificant market. It's well over a million units sold. It was close to two million at its peak. So a pretty, important market if you're a Chinese automaker. It's right-hand drive, so it's unique that way. And what I kept on hearing was that it's going to be hard to recruit a Chinese automaker because
 
 labor costs, union, and energy prices are so high. But Stella, during her speech or during her interview, really, really leaned into the fast charging, the ultra fast charging, and how it's kind of sustainable because they're attaching a battery pack. And then also in the newer charging stations, it's going to be solar powered. And so
 
 she emphasized that it's not going to be taking from the grid. I think that's an important distinction. Because not only can we store energy and from it during low peak time so prices are lower, we can then use the power of the sun to try to charge the batteries.
 
 Lei Xing (20:01)
 Just to update
 
 a number for everyone to be aware, the latest numbers announced by BYD at the Denza N9 launch was that they now have over 6,000 flash charging stations. So their goal is to get to 20,000 by the end of this year.
 
 Tu Le (20:16)
 That's a bananas number, man. That's a bananas number. And then what else?
 
 Any other surprises? we met up with a few people, so a lot of journalists were there. So I got to catch up with Simon, Simon Wright. Yeah. So I saw Simon, saw Nick Carey from Reuters, and then a bunch of us went out and had a couple of pints, because that's what you do in the UK. You have a few pints. And, you know,
 
 Lei Xing (20:28)
 That you probably saw in Beijing, right? Just a week ago, right?
 
 Tu Le (20:44)
 I, and I'm sure you do too, a little bit, lay when you were in China, just living in a city and not having to actually get into a car to go somewhere. It's actually pretty refreshing. You know, I, I, I was in a hotel central London, so I could go, I could go East and I could go West pretty conveniently. And, you know, for three pounds, I got to, the summit pretty easily, pretty quickly.
 
 pretty conveniently on time. didn't have to worry about traffic. And so I come back here and I'm an Uber driver again.
 
 Lei Xing (21:13)
 Yeah, I mean it's just different mobility
 
 way of moving around when you're in...
 
 Tu Le (21:18)
 So, yeah, I don't.
 
 I don't really have anything else. Let me look at the newsletter.
 
 Lei Xing (21:23)
 this week I know we're probably got to figure out maybe I feel like certainly we probably will not be able to do another episode since you're in Montreal, but something we can look forward to is the NIO earnings and they've launched quite a few products recently, the L80, the ES9 is launching next week. So apparently Lihong hinted that
 
 Tu Le (21:40)
 right.
 
 Lei Xing (21:50)
 they will have relatively good earnings numbers for Q1 because of their efforts on cost reduction and efficiency. actually William was just on this, I just saw this video he put out. He was on NYSE. There was an interview of him and he was using English, which is kudos. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's awesome.
 
 Tu Le (22:07)
 I retweeted it. I was, that's awesome. That's awesome.
 
 Lei Xing (22:11)
 It felt like was a little bit pre, he knew the questions, so he prepared remarks, but still, it's good to, you know, I think it's much better. compared to Li Xiang and He Xiaopeng, they're a little bit less, you know, out there in terms of English.
 
 Tu Le (22:21)
 But even then, don't think Lei Jun or He Xiaopang could do that.
 
 Well, think their
 
 English isn't as fluent as William's, but I'm sure being the obsessives that they all are, they probably practice consistently every day.
 
 Lei Xing (22:42)
 Yeah, so that's something we can look forward to. The Xiaomi YU7 GT just set a new record, lap record, SUVs on the Nurburgring. It's launching later this week, I think on 21st. So I think after the Beijing Auto Show, now we're into the season of these launches, right? I mentioned Denza N9, the WEY V9X, one of the Volkswagen models, ID UNYX 07.
 
 Tu Le (22:48)
 Hahaha
 
 Yes.
 
 Lei Xing (23:08)
 And now we're going to see, because the recent numbers out of China are not positive economically, at least what was reported, Retail sales and export remains going to be a huge component of sales going forward, it looks like. Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (23:23)
 And it's going to be a flash point for countries. Because
 
 one of the biggest things that was consistent was exports into Europe. when you talk about exports, you then talk about domestic manufacturing. So it was almost complementary. Are you going to continue to export, or do you have plans to manufacture domestically? And that's kind of where Elvis got into.
 
 Hey man, we're open for business. We're looking, we're actively looking. We might, we might buy a Volkswagen factory, you know? And so like, I was just, whoa, it was kind of refreshing. I don't think he was supposed to say all these things, but he was pretty open about it.
 
 Lei Xing (24:02)
 Yeah, no
 
 PR control. I'm just pretty, yeah.
 
 Tu Le (24:05)
 Well, yeah, so
 
 I think I think there was some cleanup I'm sure that some of his partners were like what the hell man, so Anyways
 
 Lei Xing (24:17)
 they just started job one of the GX Robotaxi. Vision-based, HD-map free, using four of their Turing chips. we can mention the L9 Livis, which is using two of their M100 chips, 2500.
 
 Tu Le (24:20)
 Mm-hmm.
 
 Lei Xing (24:31)
 60 tops. It's overkill. It's overkill.
 
 Tu Le (24:34)
 As as
 
 Jensen Huang is eating the noodles
 
 Lei Xing (24:38)
 yeah.
 
 him and Elon Musk stole a lot of thunder from Trump when they were in China. It was all the news. my God. Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (24:47)
 How many memes came from that Lei Jun selfie with Elon
 
 Lei Xing (24:54)
 And but yeah. Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (24:57)
 Because Jensen peeled off from the group and he went to Nanluoguxiang and I think that's where the noodle place.
 
 Lei Xing (25:06)
 douzhis
 
 Tu Le (25:08)
 it's kind of funny. It always is a little bit kind of seeing places you and I have been to probably dozens of times on international news. now that restaurant that Jensen Huang went to, they created a specific dish or a menu item. Yeah. So.
 
 Lei Xing (25:22)
 Menu, menu, yeah, menu item.
 
 this Trump visit, I think it got pretty mainstream. I was talking to my volleyball dads and moms and they were saying, Trump was in China, right? And then they were like, yeah, with Elon, right? Yeah, so that's pretty international now.
 
 Tu Le (25:38)
 Anyways, the one
 
 thing that I wanted your thoughts on, Lei, is what I wrote in the newsletter was like all these car companies are now tech companies. And it's not limited to the Chinese because, you know, although Stella has talked about being a tech company, Xpeng is now saying they're a tech company. many, you know, Xiaomi is kind of straddles because they started a consumer tech.
 
 and are moving into the automotive space. So they probably have the most cred. GM has talked about it. And GM is actually having an event on June 9 in San Francisco with Sterling Anderson to talk about some of their initiatives. And so I might be going to that. But so I'm curious to see. And Ford also had an event during
 
 Last week that a few people had gone to and it's kind of all over the news now because they did a visit to the Long Beach office but I don't know if they really showed anything off besides the actual facility because people were pretty curious about how far along is the UEV and stuff like that, so
 
 Lei Xing (26:39)
 Well,
 
 I kind of tweeted there's China speed and there's California speed.
 
 Tu Le (26:47)
 Yeah.
 
 and, and, but what do you think about, cause if every, if every Chinese EV company is now a tech company, then it kind of washes out and it doesn't really make a difference. They just have to show us now, right. Instead of telling us.
 
 Lei Xing (26:58)
 What that? Yeah, that's
 
 the thing. I mean, that's how ineluted it is that what I mean, I talked about this, right? What you have, everybody else will have.
 
 Tu Le (27:10)
 That makes keying in on your customer such an important thing and knowing exactly who your customer is from a branding standpoint. I think it makes it more important.
 
 Lei Xing (27:19)
 Yeah, because you know,
 
 because of Li Auto L9 is the perfect example, the new L9 because now it's up against the new M9. It's up against the new Denza that just launched, which is even priced right around that price range.
 
 It's not like when the L9 just launched, was kind of the OG, there was no competition. Now it's entirely different.
 
 I think it's a lot tougher.
 
 to stand out among the crowd these days.
 
 Tu Le (27:46)
 So.
 
 That's really all I have, We will let everyone know if we can do a live show on Friday. I'll try to do that by tomorrow. I'll figure out my schedule and tweet. So for those that are interested, honestly, if there's not a lot going on, maybe we just punt to the next week. But let me confirm tomorrow.
 
 Happy birthday to our friend, Claudio Afonso. He's 28. And it was funny. He comes from Portugal to London, and they had put a name tag, and it was Caudio Miss the L. And so I just kept on making fun of him for that. And I posted in the newsletter some pictures of me and Afonso. And I said, my new friend, Caudio
 
 Lei Xing (28:14)
 That's a young age.
 
 Audio, okay.
 
 Tu Le (28:33)
 So anyways, let's go to comments. Great to see you guys again. SPX Nomad, who are the major winners out of the Beijing Auto Show thus far? Weeks later, other than the Chinese consumers.
 
 Lei Xing (28:46)
 Who are the major winners? mean, there's so many different ways you can cut it. I mean, by what standard, right?
 
 I'd probably say Huawei is one of the winners, as always.
 
 Tu Le (28:57)
 You know, think XPong, I think they did a very good job. They kind of blitzed the media and brought in all these international journalists and KOLs.
 
 Lei Xing (29:07)
 we didn't talk about this, but I had to vote one of the best. I voted the ID. ERA 9X as probably the best from the foreign volume brands.
 
 Tu Le (29:17)
 Volkswagen products to be quite frank. Are they Volkswagen-y enough? I don't know, but they're better than their first set of products, the ID.3 and ID.4 and stuff like that for sure.
 
 Lei Xing (29:17)
 Yeah.
 
 Yeah, those are
 
 last generation.
 
 Tu Le (29:32)
 So will they sell well? I don't know. You know, what else? Well.
 
 Lei Xing (29:37)
 these early numbers they announced, they look good. 11,000 units ordered in, I don't know, a couple of hours. But how long does that stay? We talked about the NIO ES8 they're coming up on 110,000 deliveries. that's less than, NIO ES8 was launched in September last year. So that's still less than a year.
 
 Tu Le (29:46)
 Yeah, that's fleeting. That's fleeting. What else do they do now?
 
 Lei Xing (30:00)
 How long does a model stay, you know,
 
 Tu Le (30:08)
 I would
 
 say four to six weeks. Maybe two months, maybe two months.
 
 Lei Xing (30:11)
 Yeah, it's difficult these days.
 
 It's intense. I'm just saying it's intense.
 
 Tu Le (30:18)
 So see more facts, go ahead.
 
 Seymour Fax says the ZEEKR VLA looks really good. FSD hesitates too much. Xpeng VLA hesitates too much.
 
 Lei Xing (30:31)
 Okay, has he tested it or I mean...
 
 Tu Le (30:31)
 Yeah
 
 Seymour fact have you tested it or you're just based on the videos that you've seen and then? SPX the Chinese imports to Canada announced so far seem to be playing safe not the latest greatest models Yeah, you know, I think they're trying to figure out what the Product mix is what the right price point is
 
 who the dealers and the agents that they're working with are going to be. And then what we'll likely see is as the market loosens up and gets more used to Chinese brands, we'll see in a 20,000 US dollar Chinese EV probably lands in Canada at 40. Okay, so I don't think.
 
 Lei Xing (31:16)
 Yeah, yeah, it's a simple model.
 
 Tu Le (31:19)
 I don't think they're going to be landing at 25,000, 30,000 Canadian. Now, will they build them domestically and then maybe get some of the more mass market vehicles there? Yes. But remember that the Canada market, the United States market, those are two markets that they're going to try to wring profits from. So I don't see the cheapest, most inexpensive vehicles landing there.
 
 because I think there's better value at kind of the mid price point.
 
 Lei Xing (31:46)
 Sure, but the same, I think same thing is going to play out where if you look at the bang for the buck, what you pay for 40,000 Canadian dollars, if you trust, the quality and the fit and finish, it's above and beyond what you can buy for 40,000 Canadian dollars. If they have similar features,
 
 Tu Le (32:03)
 Yeah, well, if.
 
 If I were leap, if I were BYD or Geely, depending on the brand, I would look at what the current competition is from Hyundai, from Kia, from GM and the pricing. And then I would find a product that has just a few more features than the current competition domestically in Canada and start to import that at the same price. Cause it'll be
 
 it'll be more expensive or it'll generate more profits for them.
 
 Lei Xing (32:34)
 I mean, let's
 
 say the tariff is 6 % for Canada. So do the math. If an EV that's costing US $25,000 imported into Canada at the current tariff rates, how much would you add on top of it for a realistic price that you can buy as a consumer?
 
 Tu Le (32:42)
 Yeah, but that's something they put on everything. think that's something they put on everything.
 
 Lei Xing (32:59)
 Do a quick math. mean, you add what? 10, 15,000 on top or no?
 
 Tu Le (33:04)
 Well, I think it's probably going to be like a percentage. So maybe I would say 35%. So if it's a $20,000 car at seven, eight grand, maybe 10 grand. yeah.
 
 Lei Xing (33:15)
 Right, then
 
 it's still pretty competitive price-wise.
 
 Tu Le (33:21)
 why Canada limited it to 49,000 units. And the 49,000 units, don't think you can export an ES8 at $65,000 or $55,000. So I think let's see how that plays out over the next six to eight months and see what
 
 Lei Xing (33:24)
 Yeah.
 
 Right, right, right, right.
 
 Tu Le (33:44)
 our government's reaction is going to be to that. And I will in two weeks time anyways, be able to give you much more clarity on what local Michigan politicians are thinking because we've effectively restricted them because there were senators and politicians that created bills to try to keep them out. The Trump administration obviously listened a little bit because there were no announcements during his visit.
 
 So what now?
 
 Lei Xing (34:11)
 So until this point, Trump himself still has not openly said anything about the possible investment in the auto industry other than what he said earlier in the year, right? Let them come in, let them come in and hire you and your neighbors. Yeah, so yeah.
 
 Tu Le (34:32)
 That's an ongoing discussion, I think, behind the scenes.
 
 Lei Xing (34:36)
 But I mean from the Congress, right? We heard about the Connected Vehicle Safety Act that was kind of put out by these two Congress. And then the associations, Jim Farley, everybody's at this point is against it. But Trump has not openly said anything yet. Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (34:53)
 But his
 
 Lieutenant Lutnick did. So, how did you establish contacts with NBC and other news outlets? How did they know you are the guy that has the deepest and freshest insights into the industry? No need to comment if it's personal.
 
 Lei Xing (34:56)
 Yeah, right.
 
 Well,
 
 we've been doing this for such a long time. I mean, you're on multiple outlets, right? So we get tracked down by these people who are...
 
 Tu Le (35:12)
 Yeah, you know, I think it's about time.
 
 if you want to ask who's the winner from the Beijing Auto Show, I think Li Auto, because we got 2,000 views from our video. So I think we're starting to build that foundation, and maybe the algorithm is really picking up China EVs & More a little bit. Now again, we don't spend any marketing dollars, and we should do that.
 
 Lei Xing (35:27)
 cool. Yeah.
 
 Tu Le (35:40)
 but I also think you and I having higher profiles a little bit now also helps. So see more fact. ZEEKR RoboTaxi in Las Vegas now. Waymo is going to be a monster, I feel.
 
 Lei Xing (35:40)
 Yeah.
 
 Yeah, with the Ojais
 
 Tu Le (35:53)
 We...
 
 Yeah, don't get shot here.
 
 So Seymour Fakt is basing his Xpeng comment on the videos.
 
 Lei Xing (35:57)
 USA!
 
 Yeah, I mean, the X-File and the VLA does, like I said, all the solutions in China, they're fantastic in Chinese specific situations where I wonder and I question, can FSD do the same? See, that's the thing I don't know because the scenarios are such complex and different.
 
 Tu Le (36:28)
 different perspective on that Lei is that in North America, suburbs, they drive a little bit faster. Because city traffic in China is pretty slow. So there's different things. That's why I really don't think there's going to be a universal robot taxi now, because the software will be different.
 
 in each city, think the characteristics need to be programmed in. so, yeah, I just don't know. It is a...
 
 Lei Xing (36:57)
 But I mean the Li
 
 Tu Le (37:12)
 And when you see more fact, when you talk about it hesitates too much, that could be gone in a software update and an OT update. I think what, to me, I look at it like, do I feel safe? Does it keep me safe? How close to the lines does it swerve and go back and forth within the lines? Or is it pretty straight? Is it pretty steady?
 
 Like, like if I'm on a highway and it curves a lot and it kind of jerky curves to follow the line, that is not great. That's not a great experience. It might keep me safe, but it's not great. And it makes me cringe a little bit because if in the United States, there's always a Tahoe and a F-150 right next to you. So if it reacts late to the curve, it feels like I'm going to go hit this car next to me and
 
 In China, at least, I didn't feel that as much in the i6. I didn't feel that as much in the VLA, ex-punk system. And so that's how I'm judging and basing my opinion on these things. Is it still a little bit herky-jerky even within the lanes? or, because, you know, one of the biggest challenges for i6 was there's a decent amount of construction in certain areas and they got confused on some of the lines and the grids and...
 
 and stuff like that. Remember that? And then one of the things we noted was that happened more than once, more than twice, almost every time, was that it was very late and aggressive on moving over multiple lanes when it needed to exit. But again, that's a software update. I don't think that's a system failure.
 
 Lei Xing (38:45)
 All of these systems, they're good, but not perfect. They have their own bugs in their own ways. But the other thing is now in China, have, I mentioned that AION which is sub 120,000 RMB with this capability, all the way up to the Denzas the NIOs, which have these capabilities. It's just available, standardized.
 
 And yeah.
 
 Tu Le (39:10)
 So Seymour fact has a Model Y. So that's what he's kind of Jones and for some of the Chinese intelligent driving. Malcolm Bennett, what's going on? I think you're newish maybe, or this is the first time you've commented. Welcome Malcolm. In Canada, made in China Tesla seem to have flooded the quota.
 
 BYD, et need to establish cars, parts, dealership throughout country to become established in years to come. didn't Geely already start shipping Lotus's? So I think that's another advantage as well for Lotus brand because Lotus's were sold in Canada already. So just like Tesla's has already a distribution network, but...
 
 Lei Xing (39:35)
 What's that?
 
 Tu Le (39:52)
 I don't know how the Canadian government, I don't know how the Chinese government is going to divide that 49,000 unit quota up. Is it first come first serve? Right.
 
 Lei Xing (40:00)
 I think that's still being worked out, right? Obviously
 
 no one brand or company is going to take the entire quota.
 
 Tu Le (40:09)
 Cause
 
 if that was the case, Tesla would take all 49,000 of that.
 
 Lei Xing (40:13)
 Yeah, so
 
 I mean, I'm sure they're jostling at this point, working things out.
 
 Tu Le (40:18)
 One
 
 of the things that our friend Steve Levine had written was that the first four months of this year, Tesla sales in China has been fairly resilient. So the brand is still really, really strong in China.
 
 Lei Xing (40:29)
 Yeah, and especially when Elon Musk is in China, right? They announced this Elon Musk in China promotion.
 
 Tu Le (40:36)
 You got to take advantage of everything. Take advantage of everything. Create an opportunity. See more facts. VLA was tested in a highly congested area with mopeds, bicycles going everywhere. It did much better than FSD. There was a side by side comparison. But remember, in China anyways, VLA, mean, FSD is not full FSD. I think that's important to remember.
 
 Lei Xing (40:37)
 Yeah.
 
 the so-called 13 something. Whereas in the US, they just pushed out 14.3.3.
 
 Tu Le (41:02)
 doesn't have as much data training the algo because you can't you can't push that data out to combine it with all the other data anyways. FSD makes me feel I'm going to get rear ended all the time turning right or left from the stop. I guess that's not your experience in Lei, right?
 
 Lei Xing (41:18)
 No, the 14.32 is noticeably more decisive compared to the previous one.
 
 Tu Le (41:30)
 Wow. So I thought we were going to be quick, but we're 53 minutes in and I will remind everyone again tomorrow, whether or not we're going to have a Friday episode, but so, so check X and we'll update you tomorrow. I'll DM you details about Montreal. think it'll be interesting. I've never been to an F1 event. I'm not a big motor sports guy, but
 
 Lei Xing (41:49)
 Either way, you know, if you want to, you know.
 
 Worry.
 
 man, yeah. I envy you, man. I'm a big F1 fan, so, but, well, on the lookout, see.
 
 Tu Le (41:58)
 This is an experience, so.
 
 Who should I root for?
 
 Who should I root for?
 
 Lei Xing (42:07)
 Well, Mercedes looks like they're the ones to beat this year. But my daughter, she's a Ferrari fan. Hamilton and Leclerq But do look on the lookout for Chinese EVs. See if you see any.
 
 Tu Le (42:15)
 So Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton.
 
 Okay, so, all right, everyone.
 
 Yeah, I will.
 
 My point is, so Malcolm Bennett, my point is Tesla already has a network while the others made in China manufacturers do not. Lotus have a very, very small market. Yes, they do. The Lotus CEO was at FT and they sell, yeah, in the thousands of units a year. So they're very niche brand. But anyone, everyone?
 
 Lei Xing (42:37)
 Yeah, no, no, that's.
 
 Tu Le (42:47)
 Montreal is a great city and fantastic racetrack. Have a great time. Thank you. I'm looking, looking very forward to it. And it looks like it's not going to be super hot because I'm fat. And so when it's super hot, I just sweat buckets. And I'm really, I don't speak French. So hopefully that's not a huge issue. But anyways, everyone, thanks for joining us after a very long hiatus and some technical difficulties last week. We will talk with you all.
 
 Lei Xing (42:57)
 yeah. Good for you.
 
 Glad to be back.
 
 Tu Le (43:12)
 in a few days or in a week and a half. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. See you later, Lei.
 
 Lei Xing (43:18)
 Au revoir!